Diva editor, responds to 'lesbian rights alliance' article in the times.

[garam]

Another strongly worded restating of support for trans rights....

"A Times article, published today, announces “lesbian fury at Stonewall over ‘trans agenda’”, as if the 135 signatories of an open letter speak for every lesbian in the world.

Sorry, but you're wrong.

Given DIVA’s unequivocal stance on trans issues, I’m sure it goes without saying, but for anyone not quite sure: those 135 signatories do not speak for us, or for the majority of cisgender lesbians.

The letter, from an organisation calling themselves the Lesbian Rights Alliance, accuses Stonewall of erasing lesbians and says: “Stonewall has rarely represented our interests. Now in your single-minded policy to promote the trans political and ideological agenda you not only fail to represent us but you actually promote lesbian invisibility – and lesbian erasure.”

I do agree that lesbians are underrepresented in the LGBT community. But it's worse for bisexual people, and even more so for trans people who are also lesbian or bisexual. That's why it's so important that a magazine like DIVA exists, and that an organisation like Stonewall is women-led and promotes bi and trans inclusion. It's the likes of DIVA and Stonewall who are making us more visible.

In fact, I'd go further. It is not Stonewall – or any other LGBT organisation – erasing lesbian identities, but these so-called feminists who, by peddling hateful and transphobic rhetoric, make people like me not want to use the word lesbian to describe myself because I don’t want to be associated with their views. What a sad state of affairs.

The letter continues: “We urge you to stop claiming to represent us and leave the L out.”

Take your own advice, LRA, and stop claiming to represent lesbians. You do not speak for me, for DIVA, or for the majority of our community.

As I’ve said before, and I’ll say again, trans women do not erase lesbians. I believe we are enriched by trans friends and lovers, parents, children, colleagues and siblings.

Groups like the LRA would have you believe that it’s “them versus us”. It’s not. They are us. We’re one and the same, and we can’t let divisive, hateful and misguided people drive a wedge between us.

DIVA publisher Linda Riley agrees with me. She says: “It seems ironic to me to complain about a lack of lesbian visibility while, at the same time, asking the L to be removed from LGBT.

“We are stronger as a community and 135 lesbians should not be able to decide what a whole community should believe.”"

I am by definition heterosexual, can i self identify as a lesbian whilst in a relationship with a male? I mean it is just a word that can be adapted to suit your personality for the day?

"And people do not get to define someone else's sexuality, including transphobes, who do not have the right to tell lesbians they are no longer lesbian whatever the circumstances."

What is the simple error (or at least recurring rhetorical device) here?

It is a basic, repeated failure to distinguish between the subjective and the objective. Akin to the oft-repeated 'words have meanings' (that is they refer to something external in the real world, like a table or a chair, or a human being), versus the 'words mean whatever I say they mean' of Humpty-dumpty.

'Feeling like a woman/female/lesbian' -- that is someone's subjective experience or way of describing their internal state.

'Being a woman (adult human female), female (check out the genes, biological structures etc etc), lesbian (a female attracted to other females) -- these are objective, or in the case of lesbian, linked to the objective in that although a 'feeling of attraction' is somewhat subjective, it is predicated on you being female for starters!

So, yes, I don't get to argue with someone as to what their own particular subjective experience is (I feel female, I feel like a woman, I am attracted to other women, so I'm a lesbian.........), but we do get to argue when it comes to the objective (but you're not actually a woman because you are male, hence you're not a lesbian either).

And as Prawn pointed out, you don't get to 'redefine' what woman/female/lesbian mean to include those you want to because women/females/lesbians were already using them.

It's the same game repeated over and over and over..............

As we are not allowed to define soneone else sexuality

I'm completely fine defining someone else's sexuality. If it's someone with a penis and a woman, it is heterosexual.

Garam

This isn't a game of guess what I'm thinking.

I couldn't care less if it's someone who says they are a lesbian. They don't get to redefine the word lesbian. Whether they are male or female. Or a lesbian or not.

As prawn says you can't just take it all out of the wash and decide a pair of pants is a T-shirt.

So, in your world, let's hear you assert that two men sucking each other off can be having lesbian sex.

Unless you're only comfortable asserting that concept when it doesn't look quite so fucking stupid.

Datun i think if what you had just said is the new lesbian.. i think that might finally burst the lesbian sexual fantasy bubble for straight men..

This is just an extension of the penis porn fantasy of having sex with a Lesbian making her take some dick like women are SUPPOSED to..that'll show her what she's missing & put her right back in her place 🙄

Nasty.

Nothing is stopping the DIVA crew and their supporters from dangling on dick all day if they so choose. I can see no reason why they just can't get on with that and stop aiming to bend the ear of those who are completely disinterested in doing same.

If my mate wants to have sex with someone and thinks I should have sex with him too, that'd be pretty nonsensical to say yes on her say so wouldn't it, notwithstanding that I'd think she'd lost her mind.

Is it just me, or are garam's posts really difficult to read on account of him/her bolding the things, s/he's saying, not the quotes from others. It's contrary to the norm - almost as if Black is White in garam world

Were those long comments with lots of random quotes meant to make some sort of point? Because all I got was "look at me, I can cut and paste (poorly)".

'Feeling like a woman/female/lesbian' -- that is someone's subjective experience or way of describing their internal state.

I still kind of feel like a teenager sometimes, but if I turned up at my old school and expected to join the netball team they'd give me some awfully funny looks.

@garam I cannot believe you can watch Riley and not find Riley as rapey as fuck!

But then I did predict you wouldnot see what we can all see. Even if trans women were women it is still not up to anyone to try and guilt anyone into sleeping with anyone.

'But they don't have any agenda, they are speaking on their own terms for trans people...'

How do you know this?

'...plenty of lesbians with trans women partners...'

By definition not so. Unless you redefine woman and lesbian. Which you keep trying to do!!!!!!

Hint, if you need to redefine words it makes no sense.

'...most lesbian groups and orgs are trans supportive...' How do you know this? Are they really supportive or do they fear losing funding if they say lesbians are female homosexuals?

I'm supportive of trans people, you have no idea how Mich. But people don't change sex.

@garam if you want to discuss something real, I am happy to. But I think I will get off this not-so-merry-go-round for now!

Condeming the threats, abuse and coercion isn't enough.

If you so much as say these males can be lesbians, you are contributing to this rape rape culture, you are encouraging them, you are telling them that their pursuit of lesbians is OK. It isn't.

How can people not see this?

Let’s be frank here, OP.

What is the motivation for trying to equate one’s innate sexual orientation to racism and fatphobia?

everydayfeminism.com/2016/12/dating-preferences-discriminatory/

This video explicitly states that lesbians can “unlearn” their conditioned repulsion to penises if they just try, because refusing is like saying you’re not attracted to black people.

How have we ended up back at a point where people are saying that sexual orientation can be changed if you try hard enough?

This video explicitly states that lesbians can “unlearn” their conditioned repulsion to penises if they just try, because refusing is like saying you’re not attracted to black people.

And let's not forget that unlearning a sexual orientation means you can unlearn any sexual orientation.

I can't wait for that to go down on the next Piers Morgan show. (So to speak).

How have we ended up back at a point where people are saying that sexual orientation can be changed if you try hard enough?

I've asked that question many times and I still have no understanding of how it is deemed somehow progressive.

There is a new law proposed as part of the governments LGBT plan that specifically tackles banning all forms of gay conversion therapy.

www.buzzfeed.com/patrickstrudwick/gay-cures-could-be-banned-under-a-new-law-in-the-uk?origin=shp&utm_term=.agKDb9YL9Y#.rqyMJ25K25

So-called conversion therapy – dubbed gay "cures" – has been condemned as dangerous and ineffective by every major mental health body in Britain, including the Department of Health and Social Care and the Royal College of Psychiatrists. It involves counsellors, therapists, or religious leaders using either talking therapies or prayer to try to suppress an individual's homosexuality and turn them heterosexual.

A good lawyer could make a case that Genderism is a form of belief system and people like Riley J Dennis are preaching a form of conversion therapy.

A good lawyer could make a case that Genderism is a form of belief system and people like Riley J Dennis are preaching a form of conversion therapy.

We don't need a good lawyer to say that - plenty of us have been saying that for quite some time now! Of course it's gay conversion therapy.

I think the number of people in leadership positions in formerly LGBT and women's rights organizations who have come out as homophobic misogynists means it is time to acknowledge that transitioning away the Gays and Lesbians and stripping women of their rights has been the goal since the groups were taken over by MRAs.

This debate always always always ends up at the same point. Be nicer because someone feels like objective, legally defined categories are just mean - to men.

And this:
feministheretic.wordpress.com/2017/08/23/peer-pressure/

There seems to be an error made between "defining" and "describing".

We shouldn't "define" people's sexuality for them. Actually, I agree with that. As a feminist, I object to heteronormativity as part of power dynamics that disadvantage women, and a key part of feminism has been saying to men, "hey, YOU don't get to define what women's sexuality is!". So i could actually get on board with that - BUT! (and it's a big but).

What's happening here is "describing" sexuality, isn't it? If a man and a woman are having sex, that's heterosexual sex. You're not "defining" anythng about them, you are noting that they are mashing genitals in a combination that has traditionally led to the continuation of our species.

Again, it all starts with changing the meaning of words - little by little you steer language in the direction that you want it to go, and before you know it you end up with 2D +69=L.

lol, these replies are wild, all over the place, and like a phrase book from the reactionary arm of outdated 60's feminism, obviously as expected....

Nothing sadder than railing against the world, and constantly calling everyone who disagree's with the transphobia a rape apologist....

"wah-wah it's not transphobia to understand biology"

Society is moving on, this is a position of a tiny band of attention seekers. That is dwindling fast and has no real support.

The more the gender-crits attack trans people the more you shoot yourselves in the foot.

People accept information from the medical/endocrinology professions and the words of trans people, not a forum board that has become indistinguishable from right-wing evengelicals...... transphobes/gendercrits tried to block trans women from AWS and labour clarified trans support.
You tried to take the L out of lgbt the L stood up for trans people in huge numbers.

the propaganda and misinformation being ramped up for clicks by the media and transphobes is a sideways blip, they are moving in the right direction for trans people and will continue to do so on a global scale, like gay and lesbian rights, no different...... and the trajectory over the last 5 years is undeniable, and the temperature on these boards will continue to rise and be out of step with social acceptance of trans people.

I'm bowing out of this thread now, everything that had been said in the first few pages is just being endlessly repeated like some sort of mantra of wishful thinking.

You say that society is moving on.

Are you saying that societal opinion is itself changing scientific and material reality?

How does that work?

lol?

All the most intelligent posts start like that. MLK started the fashion: "lol, I have a dream, you guys". Or was it Winston C "lol, we shall fight them on the beaches".

Do pop back if you ever feel like answering an actual question.

Society is moving on, this is a position of a tiny band of attention seekers. That is dwindling fast and has no real support.

You must really live in an echo chamber because that’s so backwards it’s actually quite funny.

The trans population is small and, outside of places like Twitter, most people don’t even think about this issue. Even there, it’s a bubble - my DH uses Twitter a lot and has never seen any of this stuff.

As it gradually becomes bigger in the public eye, it’s most definitely the TRAs who are shooting themselves in the foot, as more and more people hear the increasingly delusional ideology. Even Pink News couldn’t get more than a fifth of people to agree with your stance - if you genuinely think the majority of the population agrees then I think you need to go and talk to real people more.

indistinguishable from right-wing evengelicals

The lack of self-awareness is staggering, TBH

I bet all those heterosexual men wanking themselves stupid to 2 straight women shoving various objects inside each other would disagree with you Garam. In fact, I reckon 2D + 69 = L would really piss them off.