Diva editor, responds to 'lesbian rights alliance' article in the times.

[garam]

Another strongly worded restating of support for trans rights....

"A Times article, published today, announces “lesbian fury at Stonewall over ‘trans agenda’”, as if the 135 signatories of an open letter speak for every lesbian in the world.

Sorry, but you're wrong.

Given DIVA’s unequivocal stance on trans issues, I’m sure it goes without saying, but for anyone not quite sure: those 135 signatories do not speak for us, or for the majority of cisgender lesbians.

The letter, from an organisation calling themselves the Lesbian Rights Alliance, accuses Stonewall of erasing lesbians and says: “Stonewall has rarely represented our interests. Now in your single-minded policy to promote the trans political and ideological agenda you not only fail to represent us but you actually promote lesbian invisibility – and lesbian erasure.”

I do agree that lesbians are underrepresented in the LGBT community. But it's worse for bisexual people, and even more so for trans people who are also lesbian or bisexual. That's why it's so important that a magazine like DIVA exists, and that an organisation like Stonewall is women-led and promotes bi and trans inclusion. It's the likes of DIVA and Stonewall who are making us more visible.

In fact, I'd go further. It is not Stonewall – or any other LGBT organisation – erasing lesbian identities, but these so-called feminists who, by peddling hateful and transphobic rhetoric, make people like me not want to use the word lesbian to describe myself because I don’t want to be associated with their views. What a sad state of affairs.

The letter continues: “We urge you to stop claiming to represent us and leave the L out.”

Take your own advice, LRA, and stop claiming to represent lesbians. You do not speak for me, for DIVA, or for the majority of our community.

As I’ve said before, and I’ll say again, trans women do not erase lesbians. I believe we are enriched by trans friends and lovers, parents, children, colleagues and siblings.

Groups like the LRA would have you believe that it’s “them versus us”. It’s not. They are us. We’re one and the same, and we can’t let divisive, hateful and misguided people drive a wedge between us.

DIVA publisher Linda Riley agrees with me. She says: “It seems ironic to me to complain about a lack of lesbian visibility while, at the same time, asking the L to be removed from LGBT.

“We are stronger as a community and 135 lesbians should not be able to decide what a whole community should believe.”"

@NotBadConsidering ace!

Italiangreyhound

yeah and it always comes down to the fact that you and most of this forum refuse to accept trans women are women.

Far more people in general and women disagree with you, especially plenty of those lesbians that are being discussed.

If transwomen ARE women, what are they transitioning from and to? What are we even being taken to task for “refusing to accept?”

Also 2d+69=L Y/N?

yeah and it always comes down to the fact that you and most of this forum refuse believe that male people are women.

Fixed that for you there

I have no issue accepting transwomen as transwomen. But I do not believe that male people are women, as the definition of woman is adult human female and male females do not exist oddly enough.

Its the 'I believe in male females' crowd that are regressive in attitude and make not much sense, tbh. The entire trans ideology is basicallyhomophobic and misogynistic and actually..fairly transphobic too. Against, you know...'truscum' (I hate that term, but am not using it as an insult like transactivists do, only to show the actual transphobia)

yeah and it always comes down to the fact that you and most of this forum refuse to accept trans women are women.

garam to accept that I’d need evidence that humans can change sex. Do you have this evidence? Do you believe humans can change sex?

Come on garam please address the bull elephants in the room doing a 69 - are they lesbian elephants?

To be fair, I don’t think the position is “refusing to accept”, it is more that you can’t “accept” something you know is not true.

It’s not the case of not accepting to be awkward!

It would be really helpful to get a yes/no position on the scenario posted as an equation.

Come on, garam. We even did it in emoji for you. All we need is a yes or a no. Bite the bullet!

Did someone say lesbian elephants........

www.boundingoveroursteps.com/tilly-mae-kham-puan-lesbian-elephant-couple/

I am a paid up member of the heterosexual girls club. I like cocks in my bed. I am now trying to square the circle in my head that if the owner of said cock feels female, I am gay. Despite my orientation for male partners.

Not convinced, so far. I can see why lesbians are saying the same.

And what do Tilly and Mae Kham Puan have in common?

Both possessing vag, having fondness for vag and aversion to peen.

@garam 'yeah and it always comes down to the fact that you and most of this forum refuse to accept trans women are women.'

I think you have got it. The thing is I think you are feeling that this failure on my part to agree with you is based on some kind of dislike or whatever. It is just based in fact. I know what males are and I know what females are. And the vast, vast majority of the world conforms to this basic biological principle, with a very small number of people with medical conditions which vary.

Males are socialized in our society in a different way and have different bodies to us, reproductively. Private areas like toilets and changing rooms (locker rooms) hospitals, medical wards etc are generally segregated by sex for the protection of females.

My understanding of these basic principles is just a fact and most people would, I feel sure, agree if they even guessed these basic truths were up for debate.

What it does not mean is anything negative. I care about trans people, I know trans people, I want trans people to be safe, I want everyone to be safe. I honestly, honestly do.

Males have a much, much higher rate of offending in violent and sexual crime than women. So any man who says he is a woman, is not female. He is a man who says this about himself. Now, I am not required by law to simply accept or believe what any person tells me about themselves.

If the law is changed to mean I need to believe any man who tells me he is now female like me, it will be a travesty. It will lead to danger for natal females and. I think, it will lead to a backlash against trans people, which I most certainly do not want.

It does not mean I hate or dislike anyone. It means I do not believe you can change sex, and that is based on biology.

I am genuinely sorry this is so difficult for a number of people but we cannot re-order society and ignore serious safeguarding issues because some people are uncomfortable in their sexed bodies.

There are lots of trans people who understand this and agree with this position. This position is not anti-trans.

@garam Can I say I believe you are saying these things because you actually feel it is kinder to trans people. I don't think you are being goady or argumentative. I always try and see the best in people.

But even I would be quite surprised if you really said you felt people could change sex.

So could you be honest and say what you think is really happening. Are you saying it doesn't matter? It doesn't matter what sex someone is born, or what gentiles they have or had in the past?

'Far more people in general and women disagree with you, especially plenty of those lesbians that are being discussed.' I am afraid I do not believe you.

A lot of people have come out on twitter to tell lesbians off for how they feel.

These people on twitter say they are women, they say they are lesbian, maybe they are; some say they are partnered with trans women and identify as lesbians and so do their partners.

Those who are not females, and not in relationship with females are not actual lesbians.

It's a bit like white people who identify as 'black' or 'Filipino. If they are challenged by genuine black or Filipino people can the white people really just argue back I'm 'black' or 'Filipino because I say I am. Is that OK?

The thing is the atmosphere for women and feminists and lesbians is so toxic right now it is quite common, I think to comply with the zeitgeist and say the same as the TRAs, just for a quiet life.

And other women have no idea these debates are going on.

If a woman wants to sleep with a trans woman, go for it. Like I really could not care less. but do not tell other women they should include trans women in their dating pool.

You are not on the right side of history if you are attempting to coerce women to date people they do not wish to date for any reason at all.

*If a woman wants to sleep with a trans woman, go for it. Like I really could not care less. but do not tell other women they should include trans women in their dating pool.

You are not on the right side of history if you are attempting to coerce women to date people they do not wish to date for any reason at all.*

I have said at least three times in this thread people are able to choose their partners based on whatever criteria they want, they are free to exclude whoever they want.

I have never seen a single trans activist say anything contrary to that, I've seen people discussing nuance around attractions and how that criss-crosses how we currently categorize sexual orientations, conceived and previously understood without consideration of trans people.

I have seen such things turn up on anti-trans propaganda sites, by likely fake accounts, or accounts with about 20 followers, yet their are trans voices with thousands of followers, and as such many trans people can be said to regard that trans voice as representative, and you will never see trans person advocating a position of forcing people to accept them as sexual partners.

It is as ridiculous as it is fabricated.

When a trans woman says she is a lesbian, it indicates her attraction to females over men. It really is that simple.

The fake framing that trans women en-masse are demanding lesbians MUST date and have sex with trans women is purely an anti-trans framing.

And certainly not advocated for by any kind of true activist voice in the trans community.

This isn't the issue that was being discussed, it was people telling lesbians they are no longer lesbian for whatever reason. btw...

garam

2D+69=L

YES or NO?

If you think there is no material difference between trans women and men, I'm not surprised your wallowing around gender-crit boards using whataboutery as society moves on.

As society moves on? I think not. Having successfully positioned themselves as the most oppressed of the oppressed, gained the ears of influential people, and changed the law while no one was looking, the TRAs suddenly find themselves confronted with the first real opposition to their ideology.

Gender critical feminists are armed with fact, science and logic, Garam. Trans ideology is faith based - arguing that human beings can change sex simply by declaring this to be true. When challenged on these beliefs transactivists can do nothing but hurl insults and do anything to distract from their threadbare claims. Hence all the accusations of transphobia, etc.

Trans ideology is regressive and oppressive. It's homophobic and misogynistic. And women working at grassroots level are finally getting ourselves heard. The TRAs are no longer having it all their own way, which is why we see all the rants and rages.

Garam, are you saying all the material gathered in the Cotton Ceiling section of www.terfisaslur.com is fake?

I have personally seen transwomen saying these kinds of things to lesbians.

You should probably stop dismissing and making excuses for rape culture, especially after your rape apologist comment in another thread.

garam

The position set out above by Italian greyhound is eminently reasonable and I’d bet sums up how an awful lot of people feel about this.

Humans, quite simply, cannot change sex. Everyone has a right to safety. Everyone has a right to freedom of expression. What they don’t have a right to do is reduce the freedoms of others in order to express themselves.

People can identify however they wish. However they do not have the right to force the rest of the world to accept a position that is faith based. Nor do they have a right to force the rest of the world to give up their own safety in order to validate them.

That is what is alienating people. If the push was for greater acceptance of gender non conforming people with no push for removalnof safe spaces for women and child safeguarding, then almost everyone would be on board with it.

If the push was for greater acceptance of gender non conforming people with no push for removalnof safe spaces for women and child safeguarding

... and no re-branding of lesbian by heterosexuals.

Queer ≠ lesbian.

Queer ≠ lesbian.

Absolutely. Shouldn’t even need saying should it, that a lesbian is a female homosexual.

Let me rephrase - if the push was for greater acceptance of gender non conformity in society with no parallel push to remove or infringe on anyone else’s rights, freedoms or ability to live as they wish, then almost everyone would be on board.

Garam

You are making this so complicated.

Just accept that you and all other transactivists allow the validation of men to overcome absolutely everything else.

Including sexual orientation, science, biology and women's rights.

It makes you misogynistic, on every level. The need to overcome all those realities just to validate man is extraordinary.

Pitiful.

I don't know why you are baulking at the eleventh hour over putting your money where your mouth is to confirm that two men giving each other blowjobs is lesbian sex though.

@ItalianGreyHound Great posts and gets your point across beautifully if only I could post so eloquently I would join in this thread properly.

If I transition and “become a man” and then detransition am then I a “transwoman”?
If I “identify” as gay whilst I’m a man, is my husband gay?
Even if he “identifies” as gay, is he actually a homosexual male whilst he is rhythmically pumping his sperm into my vagina?

@garam "I have said at least three times in this thread people are able to choose their partners based on whatever criteria they want, they are free to exclude whoever they want."

I apologise unreservedly if I have ascribed to you ideas or views you do not hold.

"I have never seen a single trans activist say anything contrary to that..."

Then you have not looked. Google Riley J Denis 'Your dating choices are discriminatory.' Or RJD's equally offensive girlfriend. They just love yelling women what to do!

If I can find, then I will post.

"...that trans voice as representative..."

Representative of whom? People spout their own views on social media. Trans people do not get to define lesbianism.

"...you will never see trans person advocating a position of forcing people to accept them as sexual partners."

You certainly will not hear them use the word 'force'. But coercion is the same thing. You will see coercion. You will hear it.

'It is as ridiculous as it is fabricated.'

It is not fabricated. But you are right, to guilt trip women into accepting someone sexually, is worse than ridiculous, it is rapey.

But then I think I will post links, and maybe others will too, and you will say it is not real or not all trans women are like that. And of course they are not.

Just think for a minute.
.why are lesbians putting their head above the parapet to speak out now, why be so hated publicly? Why risk so much if it is not true?