Diva editor, responds to 'lesbian rights alliance' article in the times.

[garam]

Another strongly worded restating of support for trans rights....

"A Times article, published today, announces “lesbian fury at Stonewall over ‘trans agenda’”, as if the 135 signatories of an open letter speak for every lesbian in the world.

Sorry, but you're wrong.

Given DIVA’s unequivocal stance on trans issues, I’m sure it goes without saying, but for anyone not quite sure: those 135 signatories do not speak for us, or for the majority of cisgender lesbians.

The letter, from an organisation calling themselves the Lesbian Rights Alliance, accuses Stonewall of erasing lesbians and says: “Stonewall has rarely represented our interests. Now in your single-minded policy to promote the trans political and ideological agenda you not only fail to represent us but you actually promote lesbian invisibility – and lesbian erasure.”

I do agree that lesbians are underrepresented in the LGBT community. But it's worse for bisexual people, and even more so for trans people who are also lesbian or bisexual. That's why it's so important that a magazine like DIVA exists, and that an organisation like Stonewall is women-led and promotes bi and trans inclusion. It's the likes of DIVA and Stonewall who are making us more visible.

In fact, I'd go further. It is not Stonewall – or any other LGBT organisation – erasing lesbian identities, but these so-called feminists who, by peddling hateful and transphobic rhetoric, make people like me not want to use the word lesbian to describe myself because I don’t want to be associated with their views. What a sad state of affairs.

The letter continues: “We urge you to stop claiming to represent us and leave the L out.”

Take your own advice, LRA, and stop claiming to represent lesbians. You do not speak for me, for DIVA, or for the majority of our community.

As I’ve said before, and I’ll say again, trans women do not erase lesbians. I believe we are enriched by trans friends and lovers, parents, children, colleagues and siblings.

Groups like the LRA would have you believe that it’s “them versus us”. It’s not. They are us. We’re one and the same, and we can’t let divisive, hateful and misguided people drive a wedge between us.

DIVA publisher Linda Riley agrees with me. She says: “It seems ironic to me to complain about a lack of lesbian visibility while, at the same time, asking the L to be removed from LGBT.

“We are stronger as a community and 135 lesbians should not be able to decide what a whole community should believe.”"

2 dicks + 69 = lesbian

I think garam is just too shy to claim credit for the equation of the century. It's almost Einsteinian, right?!

We can maths it up a bit maybe by swapping words for letters...

2D + 69 = L

2D + 69 = L

Garam, help us! Can you, or can you not, solve this equation for us?

And all the talk of these lesbians as privileged - DFOD

Indeed. Lesbians are so privileged compared to those poor oppressed heterosexual males eh

Its just utter nonsense. Have been arguing with some friends over this and they seem to understand it all a bit more now and a few have even came out as GC since seeing me 'going public' so to speak. I am 'out' IRL, just I didn't dare on social media for a while...but I could not stay out of it when seeing people kicking off about lesbians protesting fucking rape culture and such. Claiming they were making up this behaviour from transactivists and that. And parroting transwomen are women too. Oddly enough, like usual, when I asked what definition of women they were using that included self identified transwomen but excluded men, they had no answer. Same old.

2D + 69 = L

This has to become a meme

It's like Zeno's paradox or something..

Garam's paradox

If someone with a penis is flexible enough to perform felatio on themselves... is that a lesbian act?

FloralBunting I think maybe one of the problems is that 'bi-phobic' isn't the most accurate word to use, but it seems to be a fairly well accepted word which is why I was using it.

And of course if there is a general air of homophobia as there was at my school, it doesn't not effect your just because it's not directly aimed at you - and as I wasn't willing to join in with that, and would in fact make pro gay rights comments I was putting myself in the line of fire anyway. Given I was bullied pretty badly it's amazing I didn't get anything more than the occasional bit of verbal abuse over it.

Of course it meant I wasn't going to come out as bi.

What I've really not liked with some of the things I've read recently (as I said in a previous post, went down a rabbit hole!) is partly the hipocrisy of complaining about the negative stereotypes of lesbians while spouting the negative stereotypes of bi women and just erasing us altogether by classing us as 'het' women. (I also read an argument that heterosexual mother's have the most privilege, completely ignoring the issues and potential for discrimination that come with pregnancy - in the UK it's a protected characteristic for a reason)

On a lighter note I did laugh at 'het' turned lesbian women being identifiable because they have short hair and wear dangly earrings that are longer than straight women would wear. Described me as a 16 year old

Italiangreyhound

If you are married to men and attracted to men, why would you think or identify as a lesbian? seems weird to me.

However, if you are not attracted to men, and have never been attracted to men, but you are attracted to women, ................. your a lesbian.

And if you have the potential to be attracted to a trans woman, and indeed find a trans woman you are attracted to, and have a relationship with a trans woman.......... your still a lesbian if you consider it a lesbian relationship.

That seems pretty straightforward for most people.
I've tried to break it down as simply as I can.

If you think there is no material difference between trans women and men, I'm not surprised your wallowing around gender-crit boards using whataboutery as society moves on.

And if you don't see any material difference between your husband and someone like Paris Lees, your going to spend a lot of time from here on in being confused......

That's all very well dear, but what about the very important equation?

If you are married to men and attracted to men, why would you think or identify as a lesbian? seems weird to me.

If you are male, why would you 'identify' as a lesbian? Givern lesbians are female homosexuals?

I hate the word 'identify' when it comes to sexuality (or indeed many things too). I don't identify as bisexual, I simply AM bisexual. You cannot identify as something you are..as you would just...be, you can only identify as something you are not, IMO.

So if being a lesbian or a gay man is all about identifying as such rather than actually being lesbian or gay, then can exclusively heterosexual people represent gay people in LGB roles? They must be able to, surely.

For example, would it be okay if an exclusively heterosexual man was the head of Stonewall? If he said that his sexual experiences with solely female people made him identify as a gay man?

garam stop avoiding it.

Does D2 + 69 = L ?

Yes or no?

you can only identify as something you are not, IMO.

Penis + trans + N* = N
Penis + identify as + N = N

• N = anything at all.

L = O + O except for when D = L when D + (O + O(

D is a magic value which you can add to any equation, like 0, where it’ll cancel its self out or else the answer will always be D.

Vulva + trans × MA* + N = N
Vulva + identify as × MA + N = N

• MA = Male approval Where Male approval = 0, N= 0

Thanks Hotrocker

@garam 'If you are married to men and attracted to men, why would you think or identify as a lesbian? seems weird to me.'

I;d like to identify as a lesbian to show solidarity with these women but of course I do not identify as a lesbian because I know what a lesbian is. It may seem weird to you but certainly not as weird as women telling lesbians they should include males in their dating pool!

'And if you have the potential to be attracted to a trans woman, and indeed find a trans woman you are attracted to, and have a relationship with a trans woman.......... your still a lesbian if you consider it a lesbian relationship.'

So sexuality is really just what you consider it to be? So if I go off and sleep with one or two guys but don't actually consider it an affair I can tell my hubby I am 100% faithful?

Words have meanings, words define things.

'That seems pretty straightforward for most people.
I've tried to break it down as simply as I can.'

What you are attempting to break down is the definition of what a word means. Lesbian means women who are exclusively romantically and sexually attracted to women. Woman means adult human female. Trans woman means a male who identifies as a woman. It does not make them a woman so they cannot be a lesbian. I've tried to break it down as simply as I can.

'If you think there is no material difference between trans women and men...'

There are material differences about all people, between all people, people are not all identical. But males are males, the sex class male. Whether they present in a feminine or masculine way. Some trans women will have had surgery and hormones etc but some won't. I believe most won't have surgery.

So how are they different to males and the same as females?

'... I'm not surprised your wallowing around gender-crit boards using whataboutery as society moves on.'

We are on the same board together so not sure what your point is there and no the world has not 'moved on'. Women are getting the same shit, misogynistic, entitled treatment from males as ever.

'And if you don't see any material difference between your husband and someone like Paris Lees, your going to spend a lot of time from here on in being confused......' This comment is so ridiculous I am not even going to reply to it.

come on garam, admit it.

Your belief system leads you inexorably to concluding that D2+69=L if the participants say it does.

You know, we know it, everybody reading knows it, but you can’t type it out because deep down you know it’s as mad as a sack of wet cats.

If you think there is no material difference between trans women and men, I'm not surprised your wallowing around gender-crit boards using whataboutery as society moves on.

Society hasn't "moved on". Because this isn't any kind of progress. It's putting women's rights and status in society backwards. Ask Pink News what the British public thinks about self ID. Only 18% in support.

We could play initials as well as equations?

AAQ = GGTB

(Clues: awkward, blind.)

🍆🍆♋ = 🚺🚺?

hahaha, notbad!!

All the cookies for NotBadConsidering

Notbad wins the thread!

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