Diva editor, responds to 'lesbian rights alliance' article in the times.

[garam]

Another strongly worded restating of support for trans rights....

"A Times article, published today, announces “lesbian fury at Stonewall over ‘trans agenda’”, as if the 135 signatories of an open letter speak for every lesbian in the world.

Sorry, but you're wrong.

Given DIVA’s unequivocal stance on trans issues, I’m sure it goes without saying, but for anyone not quite sure: those 135 signatories do not speak for us, or for the majority of cisgender lesbians.

The letter, from an organisation calling themselves the Lesbian Rights Alliance, accuses Stonewall of erasing lesbians and says: “Stonewall has rarely represented our interests. Now in your single-minded policy to promote the trans political and ideological agenda you not only fail to represent us but you actually promote lesbian invisibility – and lesbian erasure.”

I do agree that lesbians are underrepresented in the LGBT community. But it's worse for bisexual people, and even more so for trans people who are also lesbian or bisexual. That's why it's so important that a magazine like DIVA exists, and that an organisation like Stonewall is women-led and promotes bi and trans inclusion. It's the likes of DIVA and Stonewall who are making us more visible.

In fact, I'd go further. It is not Stonewall – or any other LGBT organisation – erasing lesbian identities, but these so-called feminists who, by peddling hateful and transphobic rhetoric, make people like me not want to use the word lesbian to describe myself because I don’t want to be associated with their views. What a sad state of affairs.

The letter continues: “We urge you to stop claiming to represent us and leave the L out.”

Take your own advice, LRA, and stop claiming to represent lesbians. You do not speak for me, for DIVA, or for the majority of our community.

As I’ve said before, and I’ll say again, trans women do not erase lesbians. I believe we are enriched by trans friends and lovers, parents, children, colleagues and siblings.

Groups like the LRA would have you believe that it’s “them versus us”. It’s not. They are us. We’re one and the same, and we can’t let divisive, hateful and misguided people drive a wedge between us.

DIVA publisher Linda Riley agrees with me. She says: “It seems ironic to me to complain about a lack of lesbian visibility while, at the same time, asking the L to be removed from LGBT.

“We are stronger as a community and 135 lesbians should not be able to decide what a whole community should believe.”"

@Bowlofbabelfish and @longtimelurkingtrans thank you.

Please do join in longtime. I think you are pretty eloquent too. We need trans voices too. I know not all trans people buy into this TWAW. It's not anti trans to speak about biological truth.

The TRA reteric really is like a medieval religion where science is banned and dissent is blasphemy - and is punished!

This is not good for trans people or youth. Teenage girls (some) really do think you can change sex and men can give birth!

garam - lesbians do not include real life penis and penis bearers in their sexual activities. It is that simple. Why are you trying to over-complicate it?

Garam, why won’t you answer the question?

Is it because you know the scenario fails because, as hotrocker so clearly put it, at least one lesbian (natal female) needs to be present to validate it; or is it that it fails twice over because you know that a male can never be a female homosexual regardless of who else is present?

Which is it- does it lack one lesbian or two?

@HotRocker my apology stands only if I did actually say something untrue.

But thanks for looking out for me.

yeah and it always comes down to the fact that you and most of this forum refuse to accept trans women are women

Not Shit Sherlock

or even No Shit Sherlock

@garam "I have said at least three times in this thread people are able to choose their partners based on whatever criteria they want, they are free to exclude whoever they want."

I apologise unreservedly if I have ascribed to you ideas or views you do not hold. flowers thankyou

"I have never seen a single trans activist say anything contrary to that..."

Then you have not looked. Google Riley J Denis 'Your dating choices are discriminatory.' Or RJD's equally offensive girlfriend. They just love yelling women what to do!

your dating choices are discrminatory? so by opening a conversation about how trans identities interact with non indentities in terms that trans women use about themselves.......... is coercing and forcing people to accept sexual partners they do not wish too? I don't see that at all. I see someone clearly 'outspoken for clicks' on youtube addressing a controversial and nuanced discussion, that clearly from the offset is in terms that trans women are women. If people can't get past that, why the hell are they watching Riley? to get outraged on purpose? If you don't accept trans women are women, of course your going to miss every type of nuance and scan for a gotcha. seems disingenuous to me.

If I can find, then I will post.

"...that trans voice as representative..."

Representative of whom? People spout their own views on social media. Trans people do not get to define lesbianism.

representative of trans people, ie not some crank who says something stupid. And I agree trans people do not get to define lesbianism, and equally neither do transphobes, and they do not get to attack lesbian women who have trans partners and demand they admit they are no longer lesbians

"...you will never see trans person advocating a position of forcing people to accept them as sexual partners."

You certainly will not hear them use the word 'force'. But coercion is the same thing. You will see coercion. You will hear it.

• no sorry, the idea that lesbians do not have trans women as partners, and they need to be coerced to accept it is undermined that there are plenty of lesbians with trans women partners, and plenty of lesbians speaking up and saying quite clearly that is not true. But they don't have any agenda, they are speaking on their own terms for trans people. Currently we have an overlap between some transphobes who happen to be lesbian that are trying to co-opt the lesbian community, as you are well aware from the fact that most lesbian groups and orgs are trans supportive, which is why like in this thread.... they are abused as penis-centred imposters, despite it clearly being the majority.*

'It is as ridiculous as it is fabricated.'

It is not fabricated. But you are right, to guilt trip women into accepting someone sexually, is worse than ridiculous, it is rapey.

But then I think I will post links, and maybe others will too, and you will say it is not real or not all trans women are like that. And of course they are not.

Just think for a minute.
.why are lesbians putting their head above the parapet to speak out now, why be so hated publicly? Why risk so much if it is not true?

just think for a minute why are far more lesbians putting their head above the parapet to speak out now, why be so hated publicly by transphobes who will go as far to hijack pride and chase people like Stella Duffy off twitter, just to support trans women if it is not true.

hotrocker

I already addressed that misrepresentation, why would people be trying to misrepresent me???

AngryAttackKittens
So, just to clarify, garam thinks that the Equalities Act requires lesbians to say yes to cock?

Pretty sure that wasn't the intent of the people who drafted and passed that law, mate.

Nope never said that, for the third time, I said everyone has the right to choose who their sexual partners are, and nobody else.

UpsatartCrow suggested the equality act somehow has something to do with sexuality, and I made a sarcastic remark to respond to the clearly weird reply.

*UpstartCrow
“We are stronger as a community and 135 lesbians should not be able to decide what a whole community should believe.”"

thats 135 lesbioans and The Equality Act.*

For clarity, everyone has the right to choose their sexual partner, no if's no but's.

And people do not get to define someone else's sexuality, including transphobes, who do not have the right to tell lesbians they are no longer lesbian whatever the circumstances.

Glad to help..

Tweet from Throwaway Gay:

“we’re not FORCING you to change your sexual orientation. we’re just gaslighting you and calling you a transphobe until you do!”

stop playing dumb. you know exactly what you’re fucking doing

twitter.com/Throwaway_Gay/status/1018567912934858752

Anyway, garam, our breath is so bated we've almost suffocated. This is bordering on cruel and unusual punishment! Put us out of our misery!

2D + 69 = L

Yes or no?

Couldn't make head nor tail of those posts, garam

And I'm beginning to feel like Jeremy Paxman in regard to The Question.

Will you answer it? Or not?

I couldn't make head nor tail of them either. It's my ladybrain I expect

Anyone who feels they've the right to control another person's body, to coerce them into sexual activity they categorically do not want - ie Lesbians who do not want your, or anybody's penis - is a rape apologist.

& entirely deluded because society will NEVER give you what you want, which is some weird edict by which you are able to force acceptance of you as a woman with a penis, and validly claim discrimination in terms of anyone who doesn't want to fuck you, and then compel them to do so.

You can talk around the houses as long as you like - bottom line is, they ain't fucking with you and they don't have to.

SophoclesTheFox, you feel like Jeremy Paxman, eh? When will you begin identifying as him full time? And will you save up for Paxmanizing facial surgery?

You can't stop me, floral

*TM Malcolm Tucker

Which is it- does it lack one lesbian or two?

C'mon garam. Let's be 'aving it.

You keep trying to confuse sexual preference with sexual orientation. Lesbianism is an orientation.

The correct genitalia is the minimum. That's sexual orientation.
After that, it's preference. Blondes or brunettes.

So let's hear you say it. Two guys sucking eachother off is lesbian sex if they both identify as women.

Come on let's have that screenshot off ya.

"If you think I'm not a woman you can suck my dick" (slight paraphrase because I can't remember the exact wording of that D Muscato tweet on International Women's Day)

No, that's not rapey or coercive at all. No sirree

Nope Garam, you did though. Why else quote the equality act in a thread about sexuality?
Hahahaha, can’t wait to see that one come to the High Court.
Reckon you might have more luck working on that personality of yours. Better start now because it might take some time.
2D + 69 = L
Yes or no?

Nope hotrocker
as I have said upstart crow quoted the equality act pertaining to sexuality, and I sarcastically responded, it's all there on the first page for anyone to read.

Garam, you say you do not get to tell lesbians who choose a trans lesbian partner, they are no longer lesbians.

If a lesbian chooses a transman as a partner, that's a lesbian relationship. However if a woman chooses a transwoman as a sexual partner that's a heterosexual relationship. Words have meanings. Like "woman" the word "lesbian" is not empty space for transwomen to populate. Lesbians are already using the definition.

You criticize so-called feminists who, by peddling hateful and transphobic rhetoric, make people like me not want to use the word lesbian to describe myself because I don’t want to be associated with their views. What a sad state of affairs.

As you seem to be taking terrible care of the word lesbian, washing it with darks, and pulling it completely out of shape, perhaps you could just return it like an overdue library book?

Helpful hint: if contraception could ever have been a consideration then you're not in a homosexual relationship.

As we are not allowed to define soneone else sexuality - when a person defines themselves by naming their sexual orientation as either homosexual or lesbian what do they mean? And this goes out to garam in particular.

Oh right, now you are saying you were being sarcastic?

I quoted the Equality Act as it sets out the definitions of 'bisexual' and 'lesbian'.
Its not transphobic for lesbians to say no to people who have a penis, no matter how many internet magazine articles you quote that say otherwise.

This, from another thread, seems somewhat relevant here

https://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/why-didnt-you-say-something-sooneryoure-askinguss_59d560dee4b085c51090ad64?