What's wrong with fighting for the third space?

[DJLippy]

Can't we resolve all these Trans vs feminist issues with a third space option?

Male/Female as well as unisex intimate spaces
Unisex for those who do not mind (or don't want to wait ages for the bog!) But M/F spaces respect those who have religious reasons for intimate spaces away from the opposite sex and also people who need these spaces because of trauma.

Prison's for transgender folk who feel threatened in male spaces.
Nobody should be at risk from sexual violence

Domestic violence and rape crisis support services for transwomen.
Don't trans folk deserve specialist services? If I was a victim of assault I would want people who understood me to provide support

This is all I want and I am sure many women on this sight feel the same. Is this a valid working compromise?

Snappity

I never said transwomen should not also have a separate space apart from men.

It’s not about weaponising consent: it’s about recognising difference.

Here’s what you said Snappity.

Because if for instance there were 6 rooms with (say) half kept for women with actual issues of being with trans women, the service could be inclusive while still meeting the need if some women had an actual problem.

First of all you are using “women” and “transwomen” to recognise the difference between the two. That’s a great start as you are seeing that we need to distinguish between the two groups here.

Then you recognise that women may have “issues” sharing facilities with transwomen. It’s great that you have listened to what we have been saying and have recognised our needs.

And finally you say that some rooms could be kept aside for these women who have issues sharing with transwomen.

That means there are segregated spaces for these women!

Now. What shall we call these spaces?

I’ve already suggested “female” space, which hasn’t met with any objections?

JackyHolyoake - apparently, "biological sex" is a social construct invented by gender critical feminists. Yes, this the level to which we are reduced.

LangCleg Yes.. I saw that earlier ... what a ridiculous statement for anyone to make, eh?

Then you recognise that women may have “issues” sharing facilities with transwomen.

That was for refuges only and only for women traumatised eg have PTSD triggered by anyone who looks masculine. The intention was that they have an inner space which reduced triggers while most women are in the outer space. I also would expect all masculine-looking women to be kept from those spaces, including butch lesbians. It is not about excluding trans women but all masculine looking women and any trans women who don't look masculine would not be excluded.

But I am going to withdraw it because I keep getting quoted out context and

Please can you explain to us all how any human can change sex, with specific reference to how males can become female? Thank you.

If we are saying that we women need a separate because they have breasts and men might perv at us, then anyone with breasts belongs in that separate space and that includes almost all trans women.

Now butch lesbians can't go to refuges?

Fuck me.

snap, it's gracious of you to allow that women who've been so horrifically traumatised by men that they develop PTSD are allowed access to safe spaces. As I commented up thread, I was harassed in a lavatory once. Now I'm not traumatised, but I sure as Hell would rather avoid a repeat.

And to suggest that butch lesbians are in the same category as predatory men is extremely offensive

I also would expect all masculine-looking women to be kept from those spaces, including butch lesbians. It is not about excluding trans women but all masculine looking women and any trans women who don't look masculine would not be excluded.

‘Butch lesbians’ are women

Snappity "If we are saying that we women need a separate "

I believe I asked you to explain how any human can change sex, with specific reference to how a male becomes female.

So my differentiation here is

1. Sex- woman
2. Gender- feminine

Butch women and women with short hair belong in the first category unless they prefer to be in the second - which I imagine transwomen would be ok with?

Lesbians can be as butch as they want but they can’t change sex.
Their sexual preference is Lesbian, but their sex is female
They are women and as such should be allowed to access female only spaces, unlike Transwomen

I say women with short hair and I mean GNC.

Like my mum and my aunts and my daughter and me. We belong in category 1 and if transwomen will let us join them, then we could join them in category 2

But I am going to withdraw it because I keep getting quoted out context

Oh Snappity

I refuse to believe you could be so heartless, I really do. You came up with this idea to help women in refugee of your own volition! I know you are capable of empathy, you have shown it to be so! I simply won’t allow you to withdraw it I’m afraid.

So. You agree in principle to segregated spaces Snappity. What shall we call them?

Can you actually with draw something you said...its there is black and white

Or does the poster mean that they have changed their mind..again

(LemonJello, you are killing me!)

Women can tell the difference immediately between a butch lesbian and a [person we don't currently have a mutually acceptable term for] in 99% of cases. Jus' sayin'.

Give Snappity time

Snappity: we will sort this out. There is a way to resolve this so that all women are afforded privacy, dignity and safety and that will include your partner.

Bah. Bold fail.

Well I don’t think it’s actually possible to go from believing women in refuges with PTSD deserve the dignity and privacy offered by segregated spaces, to thinking that they don’t actually deserve this dignity and privacy.

So I don’t think snappity has changed her mind. I think it’s just difficult for her to continue with this discussion for some reason, perhaps cognitive dissonance? Which we can all agree is not nice to experience.

@LemonJello, am in awe of you keeping up the pressure but so very nicely. You are just wonderful.

That was for refuges only and only for women traumatised eg have PTSD triggered by anyone who looks masculine. The intention was that they have an inner space which reduced triggers while most women are in the outer space. I also would expect all
masculine-looking women to be kept from those spaces, including butch lesbians. It is not about excluding trans women but all masculine looking women and any trans women who don't look masculine would not be excluded

To be absolutely blunt, I would prefer all refuges shut down and never 're opened if it became law that men, however they present, would be allowed general access. The bloody point of them is to save women and children. I don't know if still true, but they used to go to great lengths to hide the address from all men, not just service users men.
The very idea, that [redacted] can simply waltz in and use that space makes me sick.
For God's sake, get your own refuges, stop trying to steal women's. We fought for them,we fund them, we use them.

Thank you Floof. I really believe, like Elletorro:

Snappity: we will sort this out. There is a way to resolve this so that all women are afforded privacy, dignity and safety and that will include your partner.

I don’t want your partner to have to share with men Snappity. And I know you don’t want women who have issues sharing with transwomen to feel like your partner might when asked to share with men. There is a solution that respects both positions, and you hit on it.

So the next question is, what do we call these segregated spaces?

Our differences are pretty circumscribed then aren’t they?

Yes, they are. I don't think my position is so very different from a lot of posters on here, but an awful lot of posters on here would say that my position is very, very different from there's; because how could anyone who cares about women not think xyz about trans-inclusivity?

We disagree about when equality of opportunity is impacted and at which point the difference between a transwoman and a woman should be recognised by institutions.

That's the long and short of it. And I think it's perfectly okay for us to disagree, and I think it's important for both our voices to be heard on the issue. We are both, after all, women. We should both have a say.

I hate to bang on about it, but it's the dismissal of any one viewpoint as de facto woman-hating and the other as de facto feminist that gets my goat.

We can discuss the reasons why we think the things we do, sure we can, but when someone starts using emotive trump-words and phrases (consent, rape culture, DARVO etc.) to obfuscate the point under discussion, the whole thing becomes very much more about silencing than it does about discussion.

Why Women?