What's wrong with fighting for the third space?

[DJLippy]

Can't we resolve all these Trans vs feminist issues with a third space option?

Male/Female as well as unisex intimate spaces
Unisex for those who do not mind (or don't want to wait ages for the bog!) But M/F spaces respect those who have religious reasons for intimate spaces away from the opposite sex and also people who need these spaces because of trauma.

Prison's for transgender folk who feel threatened in male spaces.
Nobody should be at risk from sexual violence

Domestic violence and rape crisis support services for transwomen.
Don't trans folk deserve specialist services? If I was a victim of assault I would want people who understood me to provide support

This is all I want and I am sure many women on this sight feel the same. Is this a valid working compromise?

Yes .. you are.

You are saying that the issue of the consent of females is irrelevant here. That we do not have any power to consent.

We disagree .. we say that the fact that we are occupying that designated female space bestows on each of us the right to consent to the exclusion of all males from that space, regardless of how they present themselves. The law that is the Equality Act 2010 gives us that right.

prachet Well, that answers my question. You don't want sex segregated bathrooms. You want a space for non-trans women, and another for everyone else.

Yes. And it's not just pratchet.

RatRolyPoly
Can you explain why you think that transwomen should not use the men's facilities?

Oh god, am I going to have to explain the Equality Act to you now as well as my own posts?

Okay, well the EA doesn't give us women the right to keep men out of spaces we don't own. It, amongst other things, gives service providers the right to provide sex-specific service and facilities when there is a good reason to do so.

So, as per my posts, it is the owner of the space who has the right to discriminate, not you or I (unless of course we own that space).

As for my posts, I was not saying the "issue of consent is irrelevant here". I was saying "consent" is not a word applicable to the situation, but that it seems to me everyone wants to talk about sharing toilets in terms of "consent", and frankly the only reasonable explanation I've had for that so far is that it's a bloody good trick for painting people as woman-hating MRAs and shutting down their arguments.

I will say though that I do appreciate Elletorro saying that it maybe feels like a valid word to use because of the strength of emotion surrounding people being in a vulnerable position. You've softened me a little Elle. But I'm cynical and it still looks like a play to me.

Can you explain why you think that transwomen should not use the men's facilities?

Are you talking about something I've said on this thread or are you going "off piste" with this question?

Rat

You are talking about institutions being responsible for making rules. Unisex rules, as you have agreed, limit equality of opportunity for some women.

Can you see how limiting women’s options in this way is institutional misogyny which leaves some women feeling that the only way to participate is if they consent to surrendering their bodily autonomy? How vulnerable it makes women feel?

I have no doubt that you: if you decided that the rules were misogynistic, would object. Many women struggle to assert themselves particularly in the face of institutional misogyny.

How can you help vulnerable women who have less self confidence and less resilience than yourself?

I think you get this but you love arguing too much

To summarise so far. Some people (including, astonishingly, some women) think that:

• a few people who want to be women/like dressing as women a lot of the time/like dressing as women some of the time - who want to get into women's safe spaces - should be allowed to even though women overwhelmingly say they do not want this.

• The evidence that men as a class of human present regular, real danger to women, especially when they are isolated and /or vulnerable, doesn't matter, because some men's feelings come first/OR a few of these men say they don't feel safe when they're dressed as women and want to go into public toilets, etc, so they'd like to use the women's where they'd feel safer.

• The evidence that some men want this for nefarious purposes which put women at risk doesn't matter.

• Women and girl should just suck it up.

Consent/agree/accept

Or “submit”

Because these rules are imposed; they are not consulted upon- there hasn’t been an equality impact assessment

Yes. And it's not just pratchet.

Quite right, we have all agreed that women who have issues sharing with transwomen should be able to access segregated spaces.

What do you think we should call these spaces Snappity?

Would “female space” work?

RatRolyPoly
Are you talking about something I've said on this thread or are you going "off piste" with this question?

I thought you were arguing for the right of transwomen to use the women's facilities, so I asked why you thought they shouldn't use the men's.

Am I right to now assume that you don't think transwomen should use the women's facilities?

Oh Snappity

Are we coming to a consensus?

RatRolyPoly "Okay, well the EA doesn't give us women the right to keep men out of spaces we don't own. "

Read: sisterhoodispowerful.wordpress.com/2016/06/17/a-uk-guide-for-non-lawyers-about-protecting-women-only-spaces-june-2016/

The only reason these Exceptions are now being ignored is because of intolerable pressure from Trans Activists who are terrorising any organisation which tries to apply them.

Unisex rules, as you have agreed, limit equality of opportunity for some women.

To be fair, I said they had the potential to limit equality of opportunity for some women. I'm not universally opposed to unisex rules. I'm generally quite open to them in fact, but I do like to take things on a case by case basis.

Everything else in your post is fairly accurate. I do get this. But when assessing the harm vs. the reward - particularly in relation to women - I don't come to the same conclusions as you.

Perhaps in some cases I do; and in those cases I argue to use to EA to exclude people on the basis of their gender reassignment. In other cases we simply disagree and I think a trans woman in that space, as it has always been, isn't going to be any more dangerous tomorrow than it was yesterday.

I'm arguing for nuance. For "case by case". I'm mean for heaven's sake, I'm arguing for what's written in the Equality Act; "where it is a proportionate means to a legitimate aim". That's why I'm arguing. (Although yeah, I do kind of like it...)

I thought you were arguing for the right of transwomen to use the women's facilities, so I asked why you thought they shouldn't use the men's.

No, I was arguing that throwing the word "C O N S E N T" at someone who disagrees with you is a pretty transparent attempt at leveraging an emotive word to silence their opinion.

Am I right to now assume that you don't think transwomen should use the women's facilities?

Which facilities?

Quite right, we have all agreed that women who have issues sharing with transwomen should be able to access segregated spaces.

As a woman I will never agree with that.

RatRolyPoly "I'm arguing for nuance. For "case by case"."

OK .. how about this interpretation: that female designated spaces are for females only by default. Where an owner of such space wants to deviate from that, that owner is obliged to produce an Impact Assessment and justify why that deviation should be applied.

Consent has been explained. Amazing that we had to. I don't see why turning the gents gender neutral is not the perfect solution. It's fantastic. Everyone gets what they want. Amazing compromise.

The only people who don't get what they want are transactivists who simply don't want there to be any xx only spaces, for no good reason at all. They just want those spaces gone. So, that's obviously not reasonable.

Otherwise, everyone is happy.

But you have Snappity!

Oh yes jacky. Woman X who says 'I don't mind sharing' is welcome to share with XY, but my consent is not in her gift. Butbynder my solution, she can go and share with XY in the gender neutral toilets! Everybody wins!

Can you see how limiting women’s options in this way is institutional misogyny which leaves some women feeling that the only way to participate is if they consent to surrendering their bodily autonomy? How vulnerable it makes women feel?

But you are seeking to enforce your consent by denying the same consent to trans women, who are women too.

Good

Our differences are pretty circumscribed then aren’t they?

We disagree about when equality of opportunity is impacted and at which point the difference between a transwoman and a woman should be recognised by institutions.

For me the difference becomes important when I’m naked. I like communal changing rooms, I feel claustrophobic in a cubicle and found it impossible to wrangle a baby and a toddler in a small enclosed space. I probably wouldn’t go swimming if I weren’t guaranteed single sex facilities. How many women would stop going? How many children would stop?

But that’s pretty banal compared with prisons or refuges.

The only reason these Exceptions are now being ignored is because of intolerable pressure from Trans Activists who are terrorising any organisation which tries to apply them.

I think they were all trying to "get ahead of the law" thanks to the partisan Miller report. And we'll only see a return to sanity once the inevitable abuse/rape/whatever crisis occurs first due to this wholesale disregard for safety protections and safeguarding. Then all the politicos will wring their hands and say "how could we have known?"

The only people who don't get what they want are transactivists who simply don't want there to be any xx only spaces, for no good reason at all. They just want those spaces gone. So, that's obviously not reasonable.

Interphobia again suggesting that women = XX

Snappity "denying the same consent to trans women, who are women too."

Please can you explain to us all how any human can change sex, with specific reference to how males can become female? Thank you.