What's wrong with fighting for the third space?

[DJLippy]

Can't we resolve all these Trans vs feminist issues with a third space option?

Male/Female as well as unisex intimate spaces
Unisex for those who do not mind (or don't want to wait ages for the bog!) But M/F spaces respect those who have religious reasons for intimate spaces away from the opposite sex and also people who need these spaces because of trauma.

Prison's for transgender folk who feel threatened in male spaces.
Nobody should be at risk from sexual violence

Domestic violence and rape crisis support services for transwomen.
Don't trans folk deserve specialist services? If I was a victim of assault I would want people who understood me to provide support

This is all I want and I am sure many women on this sight feel the same. Is this a valid working compromise?

That doesn't explain why the men's can't go mixed sex

And this ..

Sex segregation is unworkable, exclusionary, transphobic and has no effect on the safety of women

.. is bananas! I think you should post it on every thread and start an AIBU. Peak trans the whole of mumsnet and save us the typing.

Sorry, DadJoke Women is a gender, female is a sex.

This is incorrect. Woman = female adult human.

Sex = female; gender = learned stereotyped behaviours described as feminine / femininity

Sex = male; gender = learned stereotyped behaviours described as masculine / masculinity

I think you're forgetting that women say no. Privacy includes the communal space, not just the cubicle.

Consent is a human right, don't you agree?

Jacky revs up to slice and dice

I think Dad Joke should drop the Dad from his username, for accuracy’s sake.
Just catching up on this thread after a few days of being hell busy. Is it me or has the utterly offensive odious rhetoric ramped up a notch?
The idea that white women should be segregated from BAME women because they commit more crime and are higher risk, just fuck right off with that racist bullshit!
Women who are survivors of rape and sexual assault should be separated from transwomen, plus butch lesbians and masculine women?
Well I am a butch lesbian and a masculine woman, but I am also a survivor of rape and sexual assault, so where do I go? Should I have my own private space too, because men are a threat to me, and somehow I am a threat to more feminine presenting women?
My God, I found that post particularly offensive, but the one that made my jaw really drop was the person who said that two women a weak being murdered by their partner or ex partner doesn’t matter because those men are obviously abusing drugs or alcohol, and more men kill themselves per week so there.
I have an alcoholic ex partner. He didn’t kill me, in fact I consider myself lucky because I never received anything more than a few nasty bruises which healed quite quickly, but the emotional and psychological damage will not. The things that women have to consider ourselves lucky for… anyway my point is that my experience with that alcoholic abusive ex partner is that it’s doubtless a contributing factor to the two times I have made serious attempts to take my own life, including three weeks ago, when I damn nearly succeeded, and only life saving treatment from our wonderful NHS saved me.
The class of people with male bodies are a risk to the class of people with female bodies. This can be evidenced up to the sky and back, and the fact that people are resorting to such utter bollocks and downright offensive rhetoric only proves this point. Seriously, if they think anyone will be swayed by these arguments then that says an awful lot about them. Anyone reading this thread will read those posts and think what the fuck? Keep on peddling this shite and we’ll drag it out into the sunlight so everyone can have a good look at it. You aren’t the only one who can do Screenshots you know.
To the people who wrote these posts, thank you for showing us exactly what sort of vile human beings you are. You’re doing us all a massive service.

TheBiologicalWoman

My experience? I have a special needs daughter, and two children who I used to bring into the men's. When my daughter was under four, she was permitted in the men's changing rooms at the gyms. It wasn't an issue for me, or her, or the men around.

If you are genuinely frightened that transwomen are going to abduct your niece, or do something untoward to your eldery aunt, I can reassure you that the risk is vanishingly small - there have been no recorded cases that I know of. As far as the incredibly unusual baby napping is concerned, it's non-trans women who are the highest risk.

Calling a person both ‘female’ and ‘a man’ would require changing the definition of man from ‘adult, human male’ to something else, and that would need shit loads of legal updates.

I suppose it’s not totally unworkable but we aren’t there yet.

Therefore, the current compromise is ‘transman’.

In person, I would simply call Buck, Buck.

And actually, I feel a bit rude in discussing an actual specicific living human’s sex status. Can we please take it back to theoreticals instead?

I doubt Angel is particularly sensitive, seeing as they’ve made a living presenting as male whilst displaying female genitalia via the medium of pornography, but I am nonetheless concerned with decent manners and treating everyone with appropriate respect, regardless of gender identity/lack of gender identity/ gender presentation etc.

Language does alter over time, but I think artificially making changes or deliberately accelerating is unnecessarily elitist and causes problems for people who speak English as a second language and/or those who struggle with literacy in general.
For example, I very much oppose the Cancer Research decision to remove the term ‘women’ from their Cervical cancer campaign.
However, I am not opposed to inclusive language for transpeople, so I would argue for ‘Women and Transmen with a cervix’ rather than ‘people with a cervix’.

JackyHolyoake

This is incorrect. Woman = female adult human.

We've been through this in great detail on the gender identity thread. I think it's derail.

It seems your objection then is not that you want transgender XY people to feel safe and validated. You just want female spaces to not exist.

To the posters who are saying that the number of murdered women are not statistically significant (!) let's add in some other categories:
rape/indecent exposure/sexual harassment/sexual assault/stalking/bodily assault aimed at women. In addition to which the number of low-level, misogynist micro-aggressions such as comments that women endure.

I have in my life been subject to being followed home by a 'person' with their penis flapping at me, had my breasts grabbed and twisted on three separate occasions, had men masturbating near me in a cinema and on the tube, been intimidated by male taxi drivers making 'suggestive' remarks. As have many, many women I know - as I've mentioned before read 'Everyday Sexism' by Laura Bates.

I and many of my fellow women have not reported these as crimes, for many of us it's just a fact of life. Single-sex spaces be they ones we 'choose' to use, such as public toilets, single-sex saunas, gym facilities and those women are forced into because of circumstance such as refuges, homeless hostels and prisons, are places where women are, if nothing else, safe from these kinds of events.

No woman has ever done this to me or the women I know, be they lesbian or trans men, only people with penises.

And even had none of these things ever happened to me or people I know, I am aware enough that they do happen and frequently to other women. I have not been subject to FGM but know that women should be protected from it.

So the posters who think single-sex spaces are no big deal, bully for you, I'm glad you and no-one you care for has been subject to the forms of literal violence many others have been. This does not give you the right to sacrifice other womens' safety or dismiss their concerns. Nor does it give you the right to exclude women whose beliefs make it impossible to enter non-segregated spaces, so may then be unable to access a number of public spaces.

How do you know, Dad? You have no idea what a woman is.

Its very sweet how you keep trying to lecture women on who and what we are, but the dictionary and biological definition is;
woman = adult human female.

I really hope Snappity comes back to the thread to help DadJoke understand the need for segregated spaces for women who have issues sharing with transwomen. Maybe DadJoke would be more receptive to the argument from someone who used to think the way he does?

I still don't see why the men's isn't a lovely gender neutral space while the women's space stays sex specific. The only reason seems to be 'we don't want you to have that space'.

When my daughter was under four, she was permitted in the men's changing rooms at the gyms. It wasn't an issue for me, or her, or the men around.

DadJoke we have boys aged up to 8 / 9 sometimes in our women spaces .. no-one objects to parents with their children.

You are deliberately obfuscating this discussion with red herrings.

Dad doesn't know : this was the argument he ran away from. I've remembered now, he was talking about 'gender identity' matching the body, and making rather a hash of it.

Dad
Yes I am scared my niece will be exploited if this becomes the norm
Again, why can't men - that means transgender (or anyone else) all use the men's?

DadJoke Why are you so insistent that men should be allowed to violate our boundaries against our consent?

Bowlofbabelfish Not contradictory at all. Women is a gender, female is a sex.

No that is incorrect. A woman is an adult human female.

Sex segregation is exclusionary yes. It excludes members of the opposite sex from a space. We don’t have many places we do this in our society and the spaces we do have are there for the following reason:

Men are a danger, as a class, to women.

Are you saying that there is no need for any sex segregated spaces because men are NOT a danger to women? I think you’d have a hard time arguing that point because it is factually incorrect.

So given that the women on this thread have already agreed that we should have separate spaces for women who have issues sharing with transwomen, do ou have any suggestions for what we should call them DadJoke?

These spaces are not up or debate any more, especially not with a man who won’t be using them! But you are most welcome to help us discuss how they will work. So let’s start with a name shall we?

Sex segregation is unworkable, exclusionary, transphobic and has no effect on the safety of women

.. is bananas! I think you should post it on every thread and start an AIBU. Peak trans the whole of mumsnet and save us the typing.

Oh, dear. I think the internet would explode! I would like to qualify that, as it pertains to loos and changing rooms only. Sex segregated spaces in women's refuges, or even excluding transwomen under certain circumstances is proportionate.

I have to shamefacedly say that no one can doubt by the way I write that I am cis man. I am more like the egg-laying chicken at the farm than the pig. The chicken is involved, the pig is committed.

You mock women being scared yet the overwhelming evidence regarding assault, rape and murder by males clearly shows why women are fearful.

Your mockery shows a complete disregard for so many women's genuine concerns

LemonJello If the spaces are not up for debate, especially by a man,
then I think I should now out of this thread, or risk further mansplaining.

I look forward to reading proposals on sex segregated spaces for people with XX chomosomes that don't violate the Equality Act and are a necessary and proportionate means to an end.

You still haven't explained why our consent and boundaries don't matter. Can you try, Dad?

Runner