What's wrong with fighting for the third space?

[DJLippy]

Can't we resolve all these Trans vs feminist issues with a third space option?

Male/Female as well as unisex intimate spaces
Unisex for those who do not mind (or don't want to wait ages for the bog!) But M/F spaces respect those who have religious reasons for intimate spaces away from the opposite sex and also people who need these spaces because of trauma.

Prison's for transgender folk who feel threatened in male spaces.
Nobody should be at risk from sexual violence

Domestic violence and rape crisis support services for transwomen.
Don't trans folk deserve specialist services? If I was a victim of assault I would want people who understood me to provide support

This is all I want and I am sure many women on this sight feel the same. Is this a valid working compromise?

A bald statement? No it’s based on data. Evidence and stuff. Actual numbers. Not feelings.

Are you actually saying you have data, real data, that proves that men are not a danger to women? Release it! It’ll be ground breaking stuff! Because the current UK crime statistics disagree with you.

Point 1. Is based on peer reviewed studies, so yes it is evidentially based. Again if you have data to the contrary please publish it.

Why do you keep insisting there’s no evidence at all that men are a danger to women? They are. As a class, men are dangerous. I read a paper the other week that estimated that 635 rapes a year could be prevented in a single township in SA if proper secure sanitary facilities were provided.

My motivations are the safety of women and children. What are yours, that you want all sanitary spaces to be unisex, allowing in men? Because that is a danger to women and children. MEN are a danger. Self ID allows MEN into those spaces.

And thus we say no. America seems to have gone down the rabbit hole, and I’m very sorry they have, but we are talking about the UK here. And we do have legislation to keep those spaces single sex. At least we do for now - we are fighting to keep it, and to protect the safety of women and children.

you think he is a woman and there is a name for that

dadjoke I must ask - do you believe humans can change sex?

Exactly so, Pratchet.

RUMPELSTILTSKIN!

bettyduminde I am based in the UK. I explained why I used "bathroom." Changes in sex crime statistics in jurisdictions where these laws have been introduced are entirely relevant - there may be cultural differences which mean American transwomen are statistically different to UK transwomen, but the fact there has been no measurable increase is certainly relevant.

Prawnoftheapatriachy That is a very badly conducted survey. It refers to an increase in media reports of incidents after Target changed their policy, which introduces selection bias, because it's a hot topic. They have not controlled for that at all.

Pratchet I am not stuck. I don't need a sex-segrated space. I am in favour of privacy.

Do you believe humans can change sex dadjoke?

dadjoke if you are genuinely interested in commenting on UK laws, the two parliamentary acts you need to familiarise yourself with are the GRA 0f 2004 and the EA of 2010.

There is a court case regarding prisons scheduled for the autumn and we recently had a legal quest for gender neutral passports refused by a judge who stated the need to define ‘sex’ and ‘gender’ in law.

The best thing to do is look at data?

Oh yes, that's great.

Have you ever studied statistics? And how research is conducted? And the flaws there are in solely relying on data?

Relying on some poll data would have meant that Miliband won the election before last and the UK voted to remain in the EU. Imagine the surprise that the poll data was wrong on both counts. These are easy easy examples. Anyone can get research and data to fit what they want. Comparable data is difficult between different countries. Always the story and context behind the data that's important.

Why did the DBS rules change after Ian Huntley?
Because data collection and reporting was shit and left him able to commit double murder. Relying on the data meant he was considered a safe bet to work in a school.

Don't be naive.

We’re all in favour of privacy. Our definition of privacy means no male bodies or Y chromosomes in the toilets/prisons/refuges/hospital wards designated for female people.

Bowlofbabelfish Do you think Bucky Angel is a man?

No one can change their chromosomes, and the sex category is a useful, strong and real one for medical purposes and for reproductive rights. There I disagree with most transgender people. You can change your secondary sex characteristics, but you cannot change your primary ones.

fairplayforwomen.com

transcrimeuk.com

Some reading to start you off.

I'm in favour of consent.

So when I say no, it is not the beginning of a negotiation and nor is it an invitation for unqualified men to lecture me.

Pratchet I am not stuck. I don't need a sex-segrated space. I am in favour of privacy

Then you are in favour of women's sex specific facilities! And the nen's can be mixed sex as you don't need a sex segregated space. Excellent.

So you agree that humans cannot change sex? Excellent, that is factually correct. Humans cannot change sex.

But then you say this: you think he is a woman and there is a name for that.

Which is contradictory.

Let’s get some internally consistent logic in the argument? If humans cannot change sex, what word would that be? Factually correct? In line with thousands of years of biological observation? ‘Right.?’

We’re all in favour of privacy. Our definition of privacy means no male bodies or Y chromosomes in the toilets/prisons/refuges/hospital wards designated for female people

Exactly this.

Dad you haven't explained why all male people, and any female people who want to, can't use the men's.

Just wondered. I didn't think the name was particularly a man's name, that's all, it just happens to have the word "dad" in it. Made me wonder if I'd missed something

Lol visibly goady!

Baumederose

Yes, I have - not to a high level, though. As it appears you have, too, would you acknowledge the weaknesses in the Target survey?

Predictive data is notoriously unreliable, as I am sure you know, so option polls are not comparable to collected data.

Suggesting that because some data is unreliable means we can't rely on data undermines the whole point of statistics. The data, collected in many ways, across many jurisdictions, shows no evidence at all of changes in the type of this type of crime, which is close to zero in any event.

Maybe rat can tell us why the men's can't go mixed sex and the women's stay sex specific. I mean, someone should be able to.

Babelfish is a biologist so she will have a very specific definition to add, however, here is my definition:

A man is an adult, human male.

Buck Angel is adult, and human, but nonetheless biologically female (XX0. This is because Angel was born with a female body and because humans cannot change their sex.

However, Angel chooses to present as a man, and I have no problem respecting this choice. This means using pronouns of Angel’s personal designation. Buck Angel is a transman.

I wish nothing but happiness for Buck Angel as an individual (and have met Buck’s wife Elayne on a number of occasions due to a shared social circle. Her previous husband is a friend of mine).

Bowlofbabelfish Not contradictory at all. Women is a gender, female is a sex.

BettyDuMonder I agree he is female. He is also a man.

Dad you haven't explained why all male people, and any female people who want to, can't use the men's.

I explained many times. Sex segregation is unworkable, exclusionary, transphobic and has no effect on the safety of women.

Dad why can't the men's go mixed sex?

Dad you haven't explained why all male people, and any female people who want to, can't use the men's.

I wish they would explain.

I have a 16 year old niece with SN who us vulnerable if women's toilets become accessible to all.

I have an elderly aunt who would also be vulnerable

Oh, and as a woman too who when desperate to use a women's toilets with two children in tow, I felt safer they were outside the cubicle waiting in a women's only space.

What are your experiences dad?

Pratchet I've literally just offered an explanation.