What's wrong with fighting for the third space?

[DJLippy]

Can't we resolve all these Trans vs feminist issues with a third space option?

Male/Female as well as unisex intimate spaces
Unisex for those who do not mind (or don't want to wait ages for the bog!) But M/F spaces respect those who have religious reasons for intimate spaces away from the opposite sex and also people who need these spaces because of trauma.

Prison's for transgender folk who feel threatened in male spaces.
Nobody should be at risk from sexual violence

Domestic violence and rape crisis support services for transwomen.
Don't trans folk deserve specialist services? If I was a victim of assault I would want people who understood me to provide support

This is all I want and I am sure many women on this sight feel the same. Is this a valid working compromise?

Dadjoke my local leisure centre has a women’s change, a men’s change and a number of completely seperate floor to ceiling family cubicles for parents of children of the opposite sex to use. These are great for both special needs and none special needs as they are equipped with systems to call for assistance, if required.

A real world example of a useful third space, as the title above suggests.

A couple of decades ago my then local pool went unisex (seperate showers, all cubicle change) and I was horrified when a man stuck his head under the gap between the cubicle partition and the floor.
Luckily, I had a towel wrapped around me, and being no shrinking violent (although not yet out of my teens) I shouted obscenities at him at the top of my voice until he ran away, afraid of being caught by staff, alerted by my shouts of ‘FUCK OFF, YOU FUCKING PERVERT’.
My friend, in the cubicle on the other side was already dressed, so after she realised what was happening she chased him out of the change and down through reception, alerting the staff, who called the police, who arrived long after the FUCKING PERVERT had fled.

I never swam there again and will never again use a facility that is only unisex. Not for me (and in my 40s, I bet I wouldn’t be nearly as appealing to sexual predators) and not for my children, girls aged 11 and 6.

I have an adult son with special needs and he has been raised to seek out single sex facilities for himself, to avoid accidenly making women feel needlessly threatened when they are vulnerable. His own challenges mean he is more likely to use single occupant unisex spaces than the men’s.

So, I see your changing room anecdote and I raise it.

Third (unisex) spaces are good for everyone, but only in addition to, not in place of, single sex facilities.

Sex segregation is unworkable, exclusionary, transphobic and has no effect on the safety of women.

🌟 Sex segregation has been entirely workable up to now.

🌟 Sex segregation is supposed to be exclusionary. It excludes people of the opposite sex.

🌟 Sex segregation isn't transphobic. Transmen are welcome in female only spaces because they're female. Transwomen need to use male facilities because they're male.

🌟 As for "has no effect on the safety of women", have you not the faintest interest in the nonsense you spout? The UN Council on Refugees prioritizes safe sanitary facilities for women and girls to reduce rape and sexual assault. And that's just loos.

While men (including the ones who identify as women) commit the overwhelming majority of sex and violent crime, women will need single sex facilities where they are vulnerable and/or naked.

If you want to hand out spaces to trans people, stick to handing out your own, there's a good chap.

TheBiologicalWoman I am not mocking your fear. I was frightened all the time when my son came home late, or had to catch the bus alone. That doesn't mean it's statistically likely.

Here you go, DadJoke

sisterhoodispowerful.wordpress.com/2016/06/17/a-uk-guide-for-non-lawyers-about-protecting-women-only-spaces-june-2016/

Why doesn't our consent count?

No worries DadJoke, and no need to be shamefaced! We all sometimes overreach, the important thing is that you’ve recognised it!

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Omg this guy is mincemeat

I and many of my fellow women have not reported these as crimes,
for many of us it's just a fact of life

And even now in the year 2018 we would be laughed out of the police station if we tried to report any of the low level stuff. The cat calling, the hand up your top or skirt, the leering.
Despite knowing that this behaviour gets worse as the responsible person gets away with it.

While men (including the ones who identify as women) commit the overwhelming majority of sex and violent crime, women will need single sex facilities where they are vulnerable and/or naked.
This. In spades!!!

Wearing a dress doesn't make you less likely to commit a violent crime. Being a woman, does. Wearing a dress doesn't make you a woman. (any more than wearing a chicken suit makes you a chicken).

Dadjoke isn't listening he's just posted his own thread on AIBU asking whether his contribution as a man to talking about 'trans' issues is useful or not! Clearly if you're a man the content of what you post is by the by!

Can someone with the patience please explain the "consent" argument to me please?

I mean obviously consent to touch your body, consent to enter property you own etc., clearly I understand all that.

But what does consent mean when it's a question of someone not wanting to share a space not owned or overseen by them? Like a public toilet, or a shop changing room? I mean whose consent needs to be given to transpeople in that context? Because I can't see how it's the other users of that space in those instances really. I mean the other users can object, but I don't think "consent" is the right word, is it? They do not have ownership or power over those spaces to give consent. If men everywhere said they consented to a transman using their changing rooms in M&S, they don't have the power to confer that consent; if M&S disagree then it's meaningless.

So in what capacity are you thinking "consent" is the appropriate concept for your not wanting to share a theatre's toilet block with transwomen? Surely you're just using the word to leverage it's emotive properties within feminism? Because it doesn't seem even the least but appropriate to me. I think it actually devalues the concept, and that's no good for anyone.

That happened to my friend betty

She was naked, froze and just screamed

Luckily there was an off duty police man there!!

This is what happens when you change single sex facilities to unisex.
guce.oath.com/collectConsent?brandType=nonEu&.done=https%3A%2F%2Fm.huffingtonpost.ca%2F2015%2F10%2F06%2Fu-of-t-bathrooms-voyeurism_n_8253970.html%3Fguccounter%3D1&sessionId=3_cc-session_5b6007db-2b29-4b06-9cdf-3704808427eb&lang=en-ca&inline=false

Leveraging the word consent? Isn't there an MRA board that's missing you today?

Using a toilet and the communal space around the toilet is private. I don't want to share it with men because it puts me at risk.

Why is this not good enough for you? You think consent is negotiable?

Leveraging the word consent? Isn't there an MRA board that's missing you today?

You could try explaining why you think your use of the word is appropriate, if indeed you aren't just leveraging it as a trump card?

Why is this not good enough for you? You think consent is negotiable?

Er, no, I don't think that. But I don't think you can exercise "consent" over something that isn't yours. Perhaps I don't consent to you having any lunch today. Why are you having lunch? Do you think consent is a negotiation??

If you read what I said, relying solely on data is a mistake. Hence the Ian Huntley disaster which you appear to have conveniently glossed over?

It's context plus data. Not to rely solely on one set of data and one research report when dealing with serious issues. My point was, some polls showed one thing and some another. This is applicable to all areas of research. It depends who you ask. And the questions you ask. And what outcome you are seeking to support via the research in the first place.

The world doesnt operate in a controlled research environment.

In the UK our justice system is founded on the premis of 'better one guilty man go free than a hundred innocents jailed' (along those lines)

I would apply the same premis to this argument.

If there is a risk of one woman being attacked etc, better to keep the sex segregation. Enough women have suffered at the hands of men. I don't want to see anymore.

RatRolyPoly The mere fact that you ask this question about consent indicates that you have no understanding of personal boundaries.

The external door to the Women's Room is one such personal boundary. That door says to men this line must not be crossed, this space is out of bounds to men [regardless of how they present themselves]. Yet, some men ignore that boundary line, cross it and invade our space without asking permission .. that is what is meant by violating our boundaries against our consent.

You could try explaining why you think your use of the word is appropriate

I just did

Bodily privacy and integrity is my right.

Plus, sharing with XY puts me at risk.

Why do you question this? It's bizarre.

Well Rat, let’s turn it round and use the race analogy that you lot are so fond of.
Would you think it was reasonable if a white British person demanded entry to a Bangladeshi community centre and insisted all the Bangladeshi users speak English rather than Bengali, despite a large majority of the Bangladeshi community objecting?

It’s their space, and hard won no doubt, so do you think that white persons wish to be included trumps their need for a separate safe community space?

The external door to the Women's Room is one such personal boundary.

It is a boundary of sorts, no doubt; but in what way is it "personal"? Your body is personal, space you own is personal - it's of your person. In what way is a space owned by someone else yours personally?

Yet, some men ignore that boundary line, cross it and invade our space without asking permission

Except they may have permission from the people who actually have control over the space, and therefore have the capacity to grant or withhold consent in the first place.

RatRolyPoly The mere fact that you ask this question about consent indicates that you have no understanding of personal boundaries

Actually it's looking more and more like you don't understand consent and "personal" boundaries... You cannot consent or withhold consent over something which belongs to someone else.

If a man did not consent to my having sex with another man, should his consent be respected?

If it was a woman withholding that consent over what I do with my body?

What if you wanted to consent to my having sex on my behalf, without my permission?

What if a man wanted to?

Funny kind of feminist who would think consent can be conferred by anyone other than the person who owns or is responsible for the body or space in question.

Well Rat, let’s turn it round and use the race analogy that you lot are so fond of.

I don't think I've ever used a race analogy

In your example I assume the Bangladeshis own or are otherwise responsible for their community centre. Their centre, their right to withhold or grant consent.

When you open the door to a women's changing room it's an act of consent, to see women naked and to be seen naked. It's based on the common understanding of what a woman is. Do you understand that?

RatRolyPoly "It is a boundary of sorts, no doubt; but in what way is it "personal"? "

It's personal to whoever is in the room at the time. That door is a boundary for all females using that room at any time, all the time.