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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Your comments for Penny Mordaunt

165 replies

gendercritter · 04/07/2018 20:01

I just read on another thread that Justine is meeting with Penny Mordaunt soon.

In Justine's words: 'You should also know that I’m due to meet soon with Penny Mordaunt to discuss “any ideas you may have on the women and equalities agenda’' and I will of course reflect the strong opinion of many Mumsnetters wrt to this issue and ask her to do a webchat too.'

I thought this was worth highlighting so people can leave comments here for @justinemumsnet to mull over and raise with Penny. Perhaps, Justine, you could print them all off and hand them over to her when you see her.

Thank you.

OP posts:
Thread gallery
9
IamXXHearMeRoar · 08/07/2018 08:33

What can you say to yesterday's London Pride campaigners asking that they be protected from rape culture and men and have it recognised that Lesbian = Female Homosexual?

Mimmymam · 08/07/2018 08:42

Does Penny think that exclusive same sex attraction is transphobic and bigoted?

Knicknackpaddyflak · 08/07/2018 18:36

Quite Penny. Do you agree that it is no longer acceptable for women to be homosexual? Because the protection of transwomen's identities and feelings matters enough to withdraw lesbian women's right to speak the truth or make their own sexual choices?

Do you extend this to all women or is it just the gay ones you feel should have their right to a self defined sexuality withdrawn? How about gay men? Will you be insisting their sexual preferences are now, suddenly no longer Prideworthy but bigoted and something to be 'stamped out'?

R0wantrees · 09/07/2018 00:19

Linda Bellos, "I'm a bit of an expert in equality law"

-Penny Mordant, is there anything that Linda Bellos says that is incorrect with regards the law?

Are you aware of the circumstances that led to Linda Bellos being questioned by the police?

If not, will you be looking into this?
(thread)
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3237264-Linda-Bellos-arrested-Title-edited-by-MNHQ-to-make-clear-that-she-was-in-fact-interviewed-under-caution

Chocolatecake84 · 10/07/2018 18:20

I would like to ask her to define woman and explain how are trans women women.

I would like to ask her if she thinks it's fair that a young girl who finds herself in a changing room with a male with a fully functioning penis could herself be accused of a hate crime for challenging him.

I would like to ask her why, if "trans women are women" and "trans men are men" why hasn't the law on primogeniture been changed and why are there no plans to change it? Why are trans women still inheriting first? Why aren't trans men allowed to inherit first?

I would like to ask her why it's 'transphobic' to state the truth - a woman is an adult human female.

I would like to ask her why aren't men being called 'transphobic' or bigoted for talking about their penises? Why aren't men's spaces being invaded? Why isn't men's language being changed?

R0wantrees · 14/07/2018 07:31

Will Penny Mordant ensure that Victoria Atkins MP (Minster for Women's Affairs) meet with Dr Nicola Williams and other representatives from Fairplay for Women to investigate the serious issues they have identified and recognise women's concerns?

OP LadyLauraOver wrote:

" twitter.com/fairplaywomen/status/1017708752395481088

Fair Play for Women has exposed a scandal, an act of sabotage against women. Please read it for the details.

Straight women's voices have been screened out on the National LBGT survey. Penny Mordaunt is basing the consultation on the GRA on deliberate false information.

If you are not totally shocked then you should be. Ministers and others should resign over this. Dishonesty has no place in Law making."

thread:
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3305473-Government-erasing-womens-voices-on-the-GRA-consultation

Pratchet · 14/07/2018 07:58

That should be rewritten really. People will just say why would straight women be in a LGBT survey?

*Reform of the GRA affects all women and girls. Yet heterosexual women's responses were deliberately screened out in a recent survey that included the issue - the national LBGT survey. Despite this Penny Mordaunt is basing the new GRA consultation on responses from that survey. The government that literally screened out concerned women's responses is now saying that there were only a 'small number' of responses from concerned women.

Jeanhatchet · 14/07/2018 08:05

Penny needs to understand that while she may be listening to a narrative suggesting humanity and sympathy are essential to the establishing of rights for trans gender people .... she needs to consider that it is also humane and sympathetic to consider that the needs of women and girls are as they always have been. To be free of male violence.

Females need space to recover from any male violence they have endured without Male bodies in that space.

The ability to self-identify means that boundaries, which have already been pushed and pushed despite provision in the Equality Act specifically to prevent such intrusion into crucial women's services, will be totally broken down by males being allowed to self identify.

Pratchet · 14/07/2018 08:09

Think I was just a pompous asshat. Sorry.

she needs to consider that it is also humane and sympathetic to consider that the needs of women and girls are as they always have been

Exactly

R0wantrees · 18/07/2018 10:21

Could Penny Mordant please confirm the details of this announcement?
twitter.com/MariaMillerUK/status/1019102131394146304

In stating that this will be 50:50 gender balanced is this in anyway similar to the apparently progressive Scottish act which also redefined both women and female?

Given Maria Miller MP's position with regards self-id, what does this announcement mean?

see Fairplay for Women's discussion:

'Like A Thief In The Night: The Scottish Bill That Stole The Word Woman'

(extract)
"Last year while we were all looking the other way and distracted by the UK government’s proposals to reform the Gender Recognition Act the word woman was stolen from us. It was sneakily done by the Scottish parliament and hidden behind a smoke screen. That smoke screen was The Gender Representation on Public Boards Bill.

The Bill introduced the ‘gender representation objective’ – a target that women should make up 50% of non-executive board membership.

The purpose of this bill was admirable. It was to help women overcome the institutional sexism we suffer due to our sex. Positive action to redress the imbalances that have arisen from centuries of historical disadvantage. It was to acknowledge the reality that institutionalised inequality and sexist attitudes stop most women from reaching their full potential in public life. Financial barriers, income inequality, the gender pay gap, sexist attitudes, gender stereotyping, women’s disproportionate share of caring responsibilities, the undervaluing of women’s paid work, and media portrayals of women, to name but a few influences, all play a role in the sexism that prevents a fair number of women being involved in public life.

But in a cruel twist of irony it was also to be the perfect trojan horse to steal the very meaning of the words woman and female from us." (continues)

fairplayforwomen.com/scottish_stole_woman/

Your comments for Penny Mordaunt
OldCrone · 18/07/2018 10:28

The ability to self-identify means that boundaries, which have already been pushed and pushed despite provision in the Equality Act specifically to prevent such intrusion into crucial women's services, will be totally broken down by males being allowed to self identify.

If anyone can self identify as the sex of their choice, then the protected characteristic of sex in the Equality Act is effectively removed, and with it all sex-based protection for women and girls.

honestmushroom · 18/07/2018 11:31

Simple question: in this very emotional debate, has Penny Mordaunt given enough consideration to medical and scientific research about transsexualism and autogynephilia?
There are peer-reviewed publications, written with empathy but also scientific rigour, that suggest that there really are two types of male-to-female transgender people. The transactivist Kay Brown has a very useful website, citing actual studies by sexologists and intelligently explaining this research to the non-scientist. The (simplified) message is: these are two distinct medical scenarios, one is about identity and the other about sexuality. And the crux is that many natal women would have no problem with encountering a male-to-female transsexual in a changing room but might not feel the same way about an autogynephiliac. If de-medicalisation means ignoring medical research on this issue, we will not arrive at a policy that strikes a balance between different groups in society and their legitimate concerns.

R0wantrees · 18/07/2018 12:37

Will the Women's & Equalities department assume any responsibility for vulnerable female prisoners assaulted by those who identify as transwomen?

There is a gross failure in the duty of care required.
Many female prisoners are vulnerable adults.

Reported in The Sun yesterday:
"A TRANSGENDER prisoner has been accused of sexually assaulting four female inmates after being sent to a women’s prison.

The first of the alleged attacks took place within days of her arriving at New Hall jail, Wakefield, West Yorkshire.

The inmate was sent there despite not having had gender reassignment surgery.

It is claimed she was visibly aroused when she allegedly assaulted the first inmate.

She was originally sent on remand to New Hall women’s prison after a judge heard how she had been living as a female for more than two years."

Danvers' Twitter comment
"Submission made during the process which led to The Miller Report. These professionals who work with offenders were ignored by the Women’s and Equalities committee"

Since the Miller report Francis Crook & Prison Governers have made explicit their concerns.

"Andrea Albutt, president of the Prison Governors Association, who has managed men’s and women’s jails, said: ‘I have seen women feeling very threatened by transgender prisoners’ presence.

‘Women prisoners are very vulnerable. A lot have abusive men in their lives, who are part of the reason they have ended up in prison.

'To put all men who declare they are women into women’s prisons would be very damaging."

"Prison reformer Frances Crook said that she was worried that ‘some men with a history of extreme violence and sexual violence against women have found a new way of exercising aggression towards women’.

Ms Crook, executive director of the Howard League for Penal Reform, added: ‘These men are not transitioning because they like women and want to be a woman, but in order to exert a new kind of control and dominance over women, a sort of infiltration."

Issues have been identified earlier this year with regards male-born prisoners in female estate Scotland:
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3242178-Transgender-killers-split-up-by-prison-chiefs

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3242264-Transgender-murders-in-Scottish-womens-prison

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3237471-Transgender-prisoners-in-Scotland-progress-report

Current threads:
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3309758-This-never-happens-male-offenders-in-female-prisons

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/am_i_being_unreasonable/3309831-To-feel-sickened-that-this-man-is-being-referred-to-in-this-way-WARNING-UPSETTING-CONTENT

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3309903-Sexual-assaults-on-Vulnerable-Women-Prisoners

Your comments for Penny Mordaunt
Ereshkigal · 18/07/2018 12:41

Could Penny Mordant please confirm the details of this announcement?
<a class="break-all" href="http://go.mumsnet.com/?xs=1&id=470X1554755&url=twitter.com/MariaMillerUK/status/1019102131394146304" target="_blank">http://go.mumsnet.com/?xs=1&id=470X1554755&url=twitter.com/MariaMillerUK/status/1019102131394146304 In stating that this will be 50:50 gender balanced is this in anyway similar to the apparently progressive Scottish act which also redefined both women and female?

Excellent point. Yes I would like that answered too.

gendercritter · 18/07/2018 13:57

I'd like to ask @justinemumsnet if you have read this thread and whether it will be printed off and shown to Penny? Thank you.

OP posts:
homefromthehills · 18/07/2018 21:02

Three questions to ask her from my perspective as a transsexual woman:

1: The government say that the GRA is not working because too few people have obtained a GRC. So how does she explain that in the 2004 parliamentary debate that voted in the GRA it is clear it was aimed at transsexuals (not cross dressers etc) AND doctors advised about 5000 transsexuals would apply. 4990 have obtained a GRC 14 years later. Exactly in line with government predictions. So how is that defined as not working? What definitions have they changed since 2004 and why?

2: For all of modern history so far sex on a birth record has been decided by midwives, physicians etc. Any alterations to that definition has to be signed off by a doctor who believes there is genuine need to alter the record. Does she not think removing all medical assessment from changing a birth certificate and making it the choice of the person who holds it might set a dangerous precedent? Would a lunatic be the best person to judge if they were now sane? In effect by allowing any of us to decide a medical circumstance instead of a doctor is that not what this is doing? It also changes the entire definition of the meaning of sex from medical assessment on balance of evidence to someone's feelings at one point in time. Is that a momentous step this government wants to be seen to be the one to have chosen to take?

3: Over the past decades since transitioning first started doctors and psychiatrists have recognised that only about 10% of those who say they must change gender actually do so permanently. The other 90% change their minds or it is concluded they have other issues that need to be resolved first in different ways instead of transitioning or before transitioning. If all such up front assessment is removed how can the GRA guard against a high level of mistakes and people who realise they should not have transitioned? The desistence rate at child gender clinics is equally high. Making it an offence to say you are transitioning by deed poll permanently but then wanting to change back could make those who have made a mistake fear reversing the move in case they get in trouble. How - without any psychological assessment or counselling up front - can inappropriate transitions be minimised?

SarahCarer · 18/07/2018 21:15

I would like to ask Penny Mordant if she is concerned about the disproportionately high numbers of autistic young people identifying as transgender and embarking on a path of medical treatment which ends in state sponsored surgical mutilation.

R0wantrees · 19/07/2018 08:17

At yesterday's Fawcett Society 50:50 conference, Penny Mordant's predecessor Maria Miller MP made the following comment:

"In terms of all women shortlists, and transwomen: it’s not about a belief that a transwoman is a woman, it is the law. And it’s been that way for ten years."

Does she think this is misleading & will she please clarify the law?

see Fairplay for Women Equality Act information on AWS: fairplayforwomen.com/equality-act-2010_womens-rights/#jump8

As minister for both women and equalities, how would she respond to Sal Brinton's comment that she would be 'absolutely happy' with a Parliament made up of 50% men 50% transwomen?

Also, in response to DAwn Butler's comment. Does Penny Mordant agree that it is a shame that focus has been on promoting the political engagement of trans women through AWS whilst trans men do not appear to be similarly promoted or encouraged? Why does she think this is?

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3310443-Fawcett-Society-Live-stream-from-5-30pm-Courage-Calls-Ask-her-to-stand

RedToothBrush · 19/07/2018 10:42

Adam Wagner @AdamWagner1
Legal aid ‘deserts’ make human rights unenforceable - News from Parliament - excellent new report from @HumanRightsCtte out today

www.parliament.uk/business/committees/committees-a-z/joint-select/human-rights-committee/news-parliament-2017/enforcing-human-rights-report-published-17-19/
Legal aid ‘deserts’ make human rights unenforceable

Take a look at the "The need for a culture of human rights" section of the report from page 39. Makes important recommendations such as focus on public legal education and teaching human rights in schools

This is a great conclusion from @HumanRightsCtte's report- will anyone listen? Please retweet and like to get this report out there!

THIS MUST BE QUOTED IN RESPONSE TO THE FARCE THAT IS THE GRA CONSULTATION.

Why is the Minister for Women and Equalities ignoring this? This is HUGE. It makes the point very succinctly that the desire to be politically correct is stiffling debate and may prevent human rights from being exercised despite the law existing. If the law is unenforcable then those rights are meaningless in practice.

On the home page for the report Harriet Harman is quoted saying the following:

Harriet Harman MP, Chair of the Joint Committee on Human Rights, said:

“For rights to be effective they have to be capable of being enforced.

To do this, we must have adequate and equality of access to legal information and advice; a robustly independent judiciary and legal profession; strong National Human Rights Institutions, including the Equality and Human Rights Commission and a culture which understands the concept of the rule of law, respects human rights and which is supported by the Government.

At the moment we are seeing the erosion of all of those enforcement mechanisms because of a lack of access to justice and lack of understanding of the fundamental importance of human rights and the rule of law.

The Government must act urgently to address this.

Government, Parliament, the media and the legal profession all have a responsibility to consider the importance of the rule of law, and the role that rights which can be enforced through an independent court system, plays in that.

Government must exercise self-restraint and refrain from criticising the judiciary and legal profession.”

So why is Harriet Harman not holding HER OWN PARTY to these standards with regard to women's rights????

You might be interested in the names of the MPs and Lords who are on this committee. They are:

Harriet Harman LAB
Fiona Bruce CON
Karen Buck LAB
Alex Burghart CON
Joanna Cherry SNP
Baroness Hamwee LD
Baroness Lawrence of Clarendon LAB
Jeremy Lefroy CON
Baroness Nicholson of Winterbourne CON
Baroness Prosser LAB
Lord Trimble CON
Lord Woolf Crossbench

This is the report summary in full:
Summary

Human rights have been central to the UK constitution and its legal system throughout its history. The following section of Magna Carta remains in force today, and can be found on the Government’s legislation website.

“We will sell to no man, we will not deny or defer to any man either Justice or Right.”

For rights to be effective they have to be capable of being enforced. For that enforcement, it is essential to have:
- adequate access to legal information, advice and assistance for everyone at all income levels and in all areas of the country;
- a robustly independent judiciary;
- a robustly independent legal profession;
- a strong Equality and Human Rights Commission, held accountable for its work, and strong National Human Rights Institutions in the devolved administrations, similarly held accountable; and
- a culture which understands the concept of the rule of law, respects human rights and accepts that they will be enforced and which is supported by the Government.

Access to justice is fundamental to the rule of law. We are concerned that the reforms to legal aid introduced by the Legal Aid, Sentencing and Punishment of Offenders Act 2012 (LASPO) have made access to justice more difficult for many, for whom it is simply unaffordable. Moreover, there are large areas of the country which are “legal aid deserts”, as practitioners withdraw from providing legal aid services since they can no longer afford to do this work following reductions in legal aid funding by successive governments over the past three decades. The Government is currently reviewing LASPO and we make recommendations for that review. There also needs to be a broader review into access to justice and the provision of advice and assistance, going beyond matters which might be seen as purely legal, to ensure that people can get the help needed to enforce their rights before matters escalate into expensive adversarial court proceedings. The remit of the Equality and Human Rights Commission should be extended so that it can take human rights cases on the same basis as it supports equality cases. It should use those powers assertively and be given adequate resources to allow it to do so. Its work should be more closely scrutinised by Parliament accordingly.

There is a need for better general understanding of the role of the courts in enforcing human rights, and in balancing the rights of one group against another. Ill-informed media criticism can undermine support for the legal system which protects everybody’s rights–even those of groups who are unpopular. There is also a need for better education about the legal system in general, and the way in which it protects people’s human rights, and the Government should do more to support and encourage this.

In its strategy for countering terrorism, the Government sets out its definition of British values:

“We believe it is essential to protect the values of our society–the rule of law, individual liberty, democracy, mutual respect, tolerance and understanding of different faiths and beliefs [ … ]"

Respect for the rule of law and the independence of the judiciary are values that the Government itself must demonstrate. The UK is fortunate in having a robustly independent judiciary. There have been occasions when Ministerial reactions to individual judgments have been inappropriate. We note that the requirement to uphold judicial independence is binding on all Ministers, in addition to the Lord Chancellor’s duty to defend such judicial independence. The Government should consider whether those requirements should also be written into the Ministerial Code.

A legal profession which fears adverse consequences from taking up unpopular causes will not be effective in defending rights: the Government must be careful not to use its voice and influence improperly.

The Government needs to make sure it appropriately prioritises due respect for rights, so that administrative decisions are taken with proper consideration of people’s rights.

Individuals should be protected from abuse by the State, and public bodies should respect the law. The UK’s legal framework allows individuals to protect their rights and gives the courts the task of deciding that balance in individual cases, within the parameters set by Parliament, which includes the Human Rights Act. There is legitimate debate over how best to protect rights and where the balance should be struck if rights compete. But no-one should lose sight of the fact that human rights, and the ability to enforce them, are amongst the hallmarks of a civilised country. Government, Parliament, the media and the legal profession all have a responsibility to consider the importance of the rule of law, and the role that rights which can be enforced through an independent court system plays in that.

My Bold.

WE MUST QUOTE THIS TO FUCKING DEATH AT PEOPLE WAILING ABOUT RIGHTS.

How can women make sure their rights are being considered if they are not even allowed at the table??!

Women and children are particularly vulnerable to legal aid cuts.

I've not had time to go through the report with a fine tooth comb but my first glance at the topic headlines came across this gem:

A hierarchy of rights?
149.The Committee received submissions indicating that some rights are not given sufficient weight compared to others, which could undermine confidence in the human rights framework as some individuals feel their rights are not protected.145 ADF International commented that: “Freedom of conscience appears in all of the major human rights treaties” and submitted that “while freedom of conscience is a fundamental human right … the lack of a clear legal test to assess whether it has been violated in practice means that it is difficult to enforce.” and “recommends that the Government advances a legal test to evaluate claims of conscience to ensure the robust protection and enforceability of freedom of conscience in practice."

150.The Barnabas Fund raised specific concerns that the culture within some public bodies, including the Equality and Human Rights Commission (EHRC) and the Equality Commission for Northern Ireland (ECNI), “appears to conflate the promotion of human rights and ‘equality’ with promoting the ideological agenda of particular minority groups [ … ]” When asked in oral evidence about how the EHRC prioritised cases, David Isaac, Chair of the EHRC told us that:

“Where we think there are areas, particularly in relation to legal intervention, which are unclear or need to be resolved, we will support those, irrespective of which group it most impacts on, or whether it disadvantages a particular group. From our perspective, there is no hierarchy.”

151.David Russell, Chief Executive of the NIHRC echoed these sentiments and told us that: “[r]ights are for everyone. There is no hierarchy; they are universal. If non-discrimination and freedom of religious belief are in the balance, the commissions have an important role to play” and spoke of the:

“[ … ] commission’s important role of ensuring that the public space for human rights is opened up to everyone. [ … ] Often, the commissions have more in common with faith-based communities than we have differences, particularly around [ … ] social and economic rights, and social justice matters, such as housing and health. There is lots of room for partnership where the perception of there being a dichotomy does not stack up in practice. That has to be voiced.”

152.However, when asked to address concerns as to whether the EHRC had not got the balance right in recent years when considering freedom of belief alongside other rights, David Isaac said:

“I know that there are anxieties. The commission has various stakeholder groups and one is on faith and belief. There are all sorts of discussions, and we have frank but respectful debate on areas where people disagree. We listen, wherever we can, to those differing views, but I am sure we can do more.’’

153.Government, NHRIs and human rights advocates should seek ways of engaging more effectively with the public about how different human rights are balanced, in order to address the perspectives that human rights are “for others and not for us” and that “political correctness” stifles debate. The Government should consider the introduction of a legal test to ensure that claims of conscience and faith are reasonably accommodated within the human rights framework. The rights of minority groups will always be vulnerable, and the acid test of an effective human rights system is that it must protect these groups, while ensuring the rights of the majority are also respected.

Their bold.

Please will others make a point of trying to make sure that this gets shared widely with others in the Women's Rights Community.

IT MAKES OUR POINT EXPLICITLY.

RedToothBrush · 19/07/2018 10:43

Sorry, image fail

Your comments for Penny Mordaunt
Your comments for Penny Mordaunt
Ereshkigal · 19/07/2018 11:06

Please will others make a point of trying to make sure that this gets shared widely with others in the Women's Rights Community.

Yes, I absolutely agree with you.

R0wantrees · 19/07/2018 11:52

Please will others make a point of trying to make sure that this gets shared widely with others in the Women's Rights Community.

@DoctorW

Hyppolyta · 19/07/2018 11:55

I would like to see Justine ask for a clarification of language used.

If males can be women, what word do we use to describe those whom are biologically female, to protect our legal rights?

mummysmummy · 19/07/2018 11:57

Trans women are women-I would ask, define transwomen.
Is a transwoman someone who flirts with the whole concept and some days presents as a woman in some aspects, but usually presents as a man, the Eddie Izzards if you like
Is it someone who is presenting as a woman, as in clothing and hair/makeup, as this will enable special privileges, for example the increasing number of male prisoners claiming to be women now?
Is it someone who chooses to live most of the time as a woman but hasn’t undertaken medical or surgical treatment?
Is it someone who has most of the surgery but leaves the bottom surgery until a later date, if at all?
Is it someone who has struggled with their identity for many years and has undergone physiological, medical and surgical treatment to pass as a woman?
Trans women are a very mixed bunch indeed. We need a proper definition before decisions are made.

R0wantrees · 19/07/2018 12:23

mummysmummy

Penny Mordant will likely have met Philip / Pips Bunce. Philip / Pippa has been involved with Stonewall & LGBT+. Penny may be able to comment specifically about whether Pips is a transwoman.

www.fnlondon.com/articles/mistranslated-i-split-my-time-as-pippa-and-philip-20171002

recent thread when Pippa Bunce was part of panel discussing Girl Guides:
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3250175-Girl-Guides-Panel-discussion-at-Speakers-house-woman-male-woman-male-male-male

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