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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

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Original poster

Alternative Definitions of 'Woman'?

703 replies

Dragoncake · 04/07/2018 08:15

Do you disagree with the definition of 'woman' as 'adult human female'?

If you disagree, what is your own definition of the word?

A woman is....what exactly?

Is there even a definition? Or is 'woman' simply indefinable in your view?

On the 'A Woman is an Adult Human Female' thread I asked those who disagree to provide their alternative definition of the word.

Several people engaged, but nobody seemed able to do this.

If you have one, please post your alternative definition here. Thanks.

OP posts:
BeUpStanding · 04/07/2018 08:18

Oh my god I would genuinely love to see an alternative definition. The only attempt I've ever seen was Shon Faye's 'shifting constellation' which was absolute word salad.

Please - someone, anyone - provide an alternative definition so we actually have something to compare and debate.

MadgeMidgerson · 04/07/2018 08:28

Noted Detroit-born philosopher Eminem once said:

‘I am whatever I say i am/If I wasn’t, then why would I say I am’

I believe this is the current definition of woman that we are now working from

In any case, I personally am a Komodo dragon and so would not dream of speaking over —the increasingly expanding— woman community

boldlygoingsomewhere · 04/07/2018 08:37

I’d be very interested to see a definition because to identify as something you need a conceptual image of what it is you are identifying with.

ResistanceIsNecessary · 04/07/2018 08:40

Second class citizen?

Recipient of entrenched discrimination due to their natural biological and physical characteristics?

Class of persons routinely paid less?

Class of persons routinely sexualised, objectified and harassed?

Group most at risk of violence and sexual violence?

Person most at risk of being killed by their intimate partner or former partner?

Class of persons with the biological structure to become pregnant, give birth and lactate to feed human offspring?

If we're self-identifying then I'm one of the Mice that Douglas Adams wrote about, thinking that this earth experiment has gone disastrously wrong...

TellsEveryoneRealFacts · 04/07/2018 08:41

The isn't one. Hence #nodebate.

RedToothBrush · 04/07/2018 08:42

There is only one definition of woman.

Alternatives are political corruptions of the word.

Moonkissedlegs · 04/07/2018 08:45

Surely in order to take things forward with the GRA, changes in law etc, there has to be a legal agreed, irrefutable definition of the word 'woman'. Which cannot include bullshit words like 'shifting constellation'.

If they don't have that as a starting point then they can work from there can they?

RatRolyPoly · 04/07/2018 08:45

Woman = an adult human female, or one who identifies as such

Damn, that was hard.

Moonkissedlegs · 04/07/2018 08:50

Woman = an adult human female, or one who identifies as such

How does one 'identify as a woman'? What does that entail? Is there a threshold for this? Is it just on their say so that they identify as a woman?

argumentativefeminist · 04/07/2018 08:52

Following Foucault, though he doesn't speak on gender specifically, and Butler, gender is a concept created by the institutions of society to fit it's needs. Hence "woman" emerged as a way of classifying people with vaginas. There's a couple of arguments here of why we shouldn't follow this classification. One, a surprising number of people are born intersex - How can we classify them into a gender category? Surely, we should really be allowing them to choose what feels most natural to them. So why cant other people do that? Secondly, and more abstractly, the relationship between signifier ("woman"/"tree") and signified (👩/🌳) is an arbitrary one. Plenty of signifier/signified relationships change over time and many feminist linguists (e.g. Cixous) advocate for challenging these relationships where it seems that they benefit or uphold patriarchal institutions. I would argue that the gender binary as it was originally conceived benefits patriarchal institutions, so I advocate for altering the relationship between "woman" and 👩 to include people who don't fit the traditional physical characteristics for "woman". At the end of the day, I can't see that this in itself causes any harm, although I understand that some people have concerns about certain legislations etc., but I dont think thats ultimately what's being debated here.

RatRolyPoly · 04/07/2018 08:52

How does one 'identify as a woman'?

It's really easy actually, someone says "who here is a woman?", and you say "I am!".

Voila. you just identified yourself as a woman.

TellsEveryoneRealFacts · 04/07/2018 08:52

At what point does a man 'identify' as a woman?

What does that even mean?

AssassinatedBeauty · 04/07/2018 08:52

What puts adult human females in the same group as those men who identify as a woman? What features do they share, that all women and all men who identify as women share?

RatRolyPoly · 04/07/2018 08:53

Nice post argumentativefeminist, kudos.

RatRolyPoly · 04/07/2018 08:55

Ohhhh, I have to identify all the unifying features now do I?

I gave you a definition you could write in your dictionaries. It's as complete and meaningful as any other dictionary definition. Job done.

Original poster
Dragoncake · 04/07/2018 08:55

Thanks RatRolyPoly.

It's the 'or one who identifies as such' part that I struggle with.

The definition of a 'identifying as an adult human female' is...? I don't see a clear definition TBH.

These are fundamental changes. I think that clear definitions are essential.

I agree with PPs that the position seems to be 'its indefinable'. Which is a brave philosophical position, but not one that should be put into law IMO.

But perhaps there is an actual definition that I'm missing?

OP posts:
argumentativefeminist · 04/07/2018 08:55

Thank you RatRolyPoly 🐀 I like your more straightforward approach too 😂

Maryzsnewaccount · 04/07/2018 08:55

So, using Rat's definition "Woman = any adult who wants to be/decides they are/says they are/pretends to be/imitates/whatever an adult human female.

What, therefore, is the difference between the definitions of the words "woman" and "person"?

Or are all people exactly the same?

Moonkissedlegs · 04/07/2018 08:56

It's really easy actually, someone says "who here is a woman?", and you say "I am!".

And you think that is a perfectly valid basis for protecting the sex based rights of women?

Do you believe that women can answer the question of 'who here is a man?' with 'I am!' and 'identify' their way out of their own sex based oppression? Shit, someone should have told them! Silly women.....

RatRolyPoly · 04/07/2018 08:58

The definition of a 'identifying as an adult human female' is...? I don't see a clear definition TBH.

I just gave one.

Although philosophically I agree with a pp that all concepts are in some way indescribable as material reality defies literal translation into language/data. Wrote my dissertation along those lines actually, believe it or not.

Maryzsnewaccount · 04/07/2018 08:58

Sorry, I missed a few posts.

Rat, what is the difference in meaning between the words "woman" and "adult human" - is there none?

If that's the argument, then "woman" = "adult human" and "man" = "adult human", therefore "woman" = "man".

Is that correct?

Moonkissedlegs · 04/07/2018 08:59

You can't identify into womanhood, because if you could, you could identify out of it. And we all know that's not the case. There are literally millions of women the world over who could tell you that's not the case.

It can't just go one way.

QuentinSummers · 04/07/2018 08:59

Allowing a descriptor of a person to become used by everyone who "identifies as" that descriptor essentially renders the descriptive term meaningless.
Try it with black/pregnant/tall/curly haired etc etc.
It is a nonsense.

Maryzsnewaccount · 04/07/2018 09:01

We could of course substitute the words "black person/person of colour" into that, and following the same logic:

"person of colour" - anyone who identifies as such

"disabled person" - anyone who identifies as such

"child" - anyone who identifies as such

This is going to make the dictionary (and all the laws that are based on actual words) interesting

RatRolyPoly · 04/07/2018 09:01

Rat, what is the difference in meaning between the words "woman" and "adult human" - is there none?

No, that's not correct.

Adult human = adult human; regardless of natal sex or how they identify

Woman = only those adult humans that are female or those who identify as such

The thing is, that's basically the real-world position. You could address a room of women but you haven't sex-checked them all before you start. You only have their word for it that they are of the female sex. So "woman" has always been a question of those who identify as well as those who demonstrably are female.