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Original poster

Alternative Definitions of 'Woman'?

703 replies

Dragoncake · 04/07/2018 08:15

Do you disagree with the definition of 'woman' as 'adult human female'?

If you disagree, what is your own definition of the word?

A woman is....what exactly?

Is there even a definition? Or is 'woman' simply indefinable in your view?

On the 'A Woman is an Adult Human Female' thread I asked those who disagree to provide their alternative definition of the word.

Several people engaged, but nobody seemed able to do this.

If you have one, please post your alternative definition here. Thanks.

OP posts:
Original poster
Dragoncake · 04/07/2018 09:29

Must do some work, be back later. I'm not abandoning the thread.

OP posts:
BertrandRussell · 04/07/2018 09:29

"You can't identify yourself as Black, young, disabled or British because they all have a physical basis (where you're from, when you were born, the ways in which your body operates)" Surely this applies to woman and female too?

Moonkissedlegs · 04/07/2018 09:30

Identifying as a woman = feeling that "woman" is the gender identity that most suits you and that makes you happiest.

Ok, fair enough. But that still shouldn't impinge on sex based rights for women, because women have had to fight for those rights based on oppression because of their biology. Those sex based rights need to be protected. If you start messing with the definition, then those protections are gone, for example how would you fight a sex discrimination case at work?

RedToothBrush · 04/07/2018 09:30

I find it offensive that women have to define themselves in law and argue about the definition.

Yet the same isn't being done for men in law. (Hello Scottish government).

Why?

It says it all.

It's about men's rights.

argumentativefeminist · 04/07/2018 09:30

I think now is a good time to say that I know you dont agree with me. You dont have to keep saying that you dont agree with me, or saying the reasons why you dont agree with me. I won't change your minds, you won't change mine. I'm happy to debate on the actual details of what I've said, that's fine, e.g. the gynaecology point above. But constantly posting that you disagree with me on the fundamentals of gender isn't getting anyone anywhere - I already know that, I was offering my views not to discredit yours, but because the OP asked outright for alternatives.

R.E Gynaecology, it sounds like you know more than me about what the science and medicine of it involves, which I accept and maybe it's not the example I should have used. But I did say that as long as alternative and equal provisions were made for trans folk, that was equally fine. So we could just do that instead.

AngryAttackKittens · 04/07/2018 09:31

Why do people with surgically constructed vaginas have to be included in gynaecology?

That particular medical specialty isn't just about vaginas anyway, no matter how much some may wish they could disappear all the other relevant internal organs away. Your average gyno would have no more idea how to care for a neovagina than your average GP.

AngryAttackKittens · 04/07/2018 09:33

If AF is female it's very odd that she doesn't know that.

Maryzsnewaccount · 04/07/2018 09:33

Argumentative, if you are separating the words "woman" and "female", does that mean you would be happy with single sex exemptions being for single sex - as in people of the female biological sex only (not penis owners)?

Because if you are that makes you a massive T... (the word that we aren't allowed to use any more).

LangCleg · 04/07/2018 09:34

Identifying as a woman = feeling that "woman" is the gender identity that most suits you and that makes you happiest.

So what is the definition of "woman" that you feel suits you and makes you happy? Describe it. Define it without circling back to identifying as it.

You can't. Because it's navel-gazing nonsense. Which is why it is a disastrous idea to base social policy on it.

argumentativefeminist · 04/07/2018 09:34

AngryAttackKittens Like I said, the example needed more finetuning and a more appropriate one could probably have been found if I'd thought a little longer. Yes, I'm female, but not old enough to have ever significantly engaged with gynaecology 😂

LangCleg · 04/07/2018 09:36

You dont have to keep saying that you dont agree with me

I'm not disagreeing with you. I'm asking you to define your terms in a non-circular fashion so that I can determine whether or not I agree with you. You have yet to do this.

Acorninspring · 04/07/2018 09:38

Woman = an adult human female, or one who identifies as such

I believe that this definition is disingenuous.

The poster has taken on board the fact, pointed out previously, that in defining a word, the definition cannot contain the word being defined.

And thinks that they can get around this by replacing the word 'woman' with the word 'such'

BertrandRussell · 04/07/2018 09:40

Who was the first person ever to use the "a woman is a person who identifies as a woman" definition? Where did it originate and why has it gained such traction?

SomeonesRealName · 04/07/2018 09:40

Woman = any adult human whose behaviour and appearance do not satisfy contemporary cultural and social notions of what makes someone a ‘real man’.

argumentativefeminist · 04/07/2018 09:41

The definition of what being a woman means to me is a pretty personal question. And I'd need longer to think about it than I can afford at the moment. But at this point in my life, today, I don't feel that I want to identify as any other gender. So I guess woman does hold some kind of appeal for me that is probably ultimately to do with feminism and associating myself with the ongoing struggle for women's rights, not that Im saying that other genders can't do that. Just that, for me, as a woman, it's something that a lot of other women have been/are involved in and I feel a deep sense of solidarity with them. But some of the best feminists I know are nonbinary so it's clearly not an exclusively woman thing, I'd be mortified to suggest that and I hope this hasn't come across that way. Explaining your own identity is really hard. Part of it is probably that I've been raised as a woman and haven't yet felt uncomfortable with that.

argumentativefeminist · 04/07/2018 09:42

Bertrand I'd point the finger at Butler probably, though good luck finding it as she's basically unreadable 😂 I couldn't provide you with a reference if I tried, but it would be interesting to know the history of this debate a bit more. I've never really believed/learnt/been taught anything other than the view I have now, so I don't think I could be much help.

OldCrone · 04/07/2018 09:43

"Woman" doesn't represent a sex, it represents a gender identity.

Wrong. "Woman" means an adult female human. This is not a gender identity. If you want a word for a gender identity (whatever that is), how about "feminine person"? This could be a male or a female of any age, who identifies as feminine.

Gileswithachainsaw · 04/07/2018 09:45

Surely to identify as something you need to have a definition to identified into so if the definition of woman is adult human female and the definition of female is a biological one then you simply can't identify as something that you scientifically biologically and physically can't ever be.

argumentativefeminist · 04/07/2018 09:46

OldCrone How is it helpful to come on a thread where the first post says "tell me some alternatives to this phrase we were discussing yesterday" and your only contribution is "all you alternative-ers are wrong, the phrase is right!". There's a whole thread out there for you, it's just not this one.

LangCleg · 04/07/2018 09:47

The definition of what being a woman means to me is a pretty personal question.

No, it isn't. What you personally "feel like" requires a definition of the things you "feel like" so that you can accurately communicate what you "feel like".

I feel like a schmargle so I identify as a schmarge. Would you like to know what a schmargle is? It's anyone who identifies as a schmargle. Are you any the wiser? No.

I've been raised as a woman

To know that you have been raised as a woman requires a definition of woman so that you know "woman" is how you were raised. I was raised as a schmargle. Do you know how it is to be raised as a schmargle? No, because to know that, you would have to know what a schmargle is.

So again, what is a woman? Without resort to circularity.

flourella · 04/07/2018 09:47

How can "woman" be a term to describe what a person feels they are inside but "female" remain a term to describe a person with a vagina when the definition of "woman" is "adult human female"? Why does the dictionary definition of woman need to be changed all of a sudden? Why can't people who "don't fit in with the gender they were given at birth based on their genitals" accept that they have their own individual personality, tastes and interests without feeling that the only way to validate themselves is to colonise the opposite sex? I certainly understand that being non-conformist in any way can lead to ridicule and persecution, but surely the answer is to address that rather than deny biological sex in favour of claims of feelings and identities.

If a woman is anyone who says they identify as one, where does that leave me? I've never identified as a woman, I've only ever stated the fact that I am one. And if I never say as much again for as long as I live, I will remain a woman. I am an adult human with a vagina. What sense does it make to say that an adult human with a penis is the same as me when they are demonstrably not?

OldCrone · 04/07/2018 09:48

So what is the definition of "woman" that you feel suits you and makes you happy? Describe it. Define it without circling back to identifying as it.

And check that your definition is not circular, by substituting a nonsense word ('schmargle' was suggested above), and see if your definition still works.

BertrandRussell · 04/07/2018 09:52

"I've never really believed/learnt/been taught anything other than the view I have now, so I don't think I could be much help."
That's interesting. Are you saying that when you were a little girl you believed that you were only a girl because you said you were and you could have identified as a boy the next day?

ADastardlyThing · 04/07/2018 09:54

Surely you can't identify as something if you can't define and know what it is you are identifying as?

Like a pp said, there is no debate here. None. A woman is an adult human female. Everyone knows this, it's just some are humouring others in their belief. Which isn't nice really.

KimCheesePickle · 04/07/2018 09:54

"shifting constellation" = meaningless circular definition