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Original poster

Alternative Definitions of 'Woman'?

703 replies

Dragoncake · 04/07/2018 08:15

Do you disagree with the definition of 'woman' as 'adult human female'?

If you disagree, what is your own definition of the word?

A woman is....what exactly?

Is there even a definition? Or is 'woman' simply indefinable in your view?

On the 'A Woman is an Adult Human Female' thread I asked those who disagree to provide their alternative definition of the word.

Several people engaged, but nobody seemed able to do this.

If you have one, please post your alternative definition here. Thanks.

OP posts:
RatRolyPoly · 04/07/2018 09:16

Well, fun though this is it's financial month end for me so I will leave you with my perfectly serviceable definition.

And FWIW, although I don't wan't to "co-opt" intersex in any way, I do think if you can accept some anomalies to the definition of "woman" in the case of intersex people and you aren't worried the whole structure of language will become meaningless as a result, you're certainly able to conceptualise doing the same for trans women.

Adios!

Maryzsnewaccount · 04/07/2018 09:16

As an aside, AngryAttackKitten, this is going to be a useful thread to figure out who is still here [sigh]

argumentativefeminist · 04/07/2018 09:16

Mary "Woman" doesn't represent a sex, it represents a gender identity. Sex is mostly thought of as male/female but in reality that's just a nicer way to say penis/vagina. Without getting into whether you can change sex, you fundamentally should be able to change your gender, because it's a fact that some people feel they dont fit in with the gender they were given at birth based on their genitals, and would really very much like to identify with and be recognised as a different gender. It would be cruel to deny people who don't mean any harm that opportunity, surely? You can't identify yourself as Black, young, disabled or British because they all have a physical basis (where you're from, when you were born, the ways in which your body operates). Although, sometimes we do let people who /feel/ British despite having been born elsewhere or moved away for a long time identify as British. Nobody seems to get too het up about it.

RedToothBrush · 04/07/2018 09:16

"woman shouldn't be a physical fact, it should be an identity that you can choose."

Water is wet.

It doesn't stop being wet just because you fuck about with words and decide you don't like being wet.

If someone chucks a bucket of water over you, you'll still be wet even if you identify as dry.

Reality is inescapable.

Redefining of words to suit political agendas does not stop water being wet.

Moonkissedlegs · 04/07/2018 09:16

And you can "identify out of womanhood" if that's the way you want to put it. Trans men and agender/gender non-binary people exist.

Awwww, shit, someone should have told Malala that and she could have avoided the whole 'getting shot in the head by the Taliban' fiasco. She could have just 'identified out of her womanhood' and gone to school.

All those women who have been raped and sexually assaulted should have just said 'hey, I'm non binary, dont rape me'.

The woman who has been discriminated against at work because she is of child bearing age could just say, 'it's OK, I identity as a man, so you have nothing to worry about'.

The woman who finds herself pregnant with an unwanted foetus, just says 'I identify as male' and poof, the foetus in her uterus disappears in a puff of smoke.

Who knew it was so easy eh?

Maryzsnewaccount · 04/07/2018 09:17

And there she goes (having co-opted intersex people on the way out).

How predictable.

Maryzsnewaccount · 04/07/2018 09:17

"Woman" doesn't represent a sex, it represents a gender identity.

Are you having a laugh? Do you really believe that?

Jaysus.

RatRolyPoly · 04/07/2018 09:18

How predictable.

Not really though is it, I'm usually annoyingly "present". Or so I've heard.

Anyway, I'll dip in and out but I really do have to work.

RedToothBrush · 04/07/2018 09:18

You can't identify yourself as Black, young, disabled or British because they all have a physical basis (where you're from, when you were born, the ways in which your body operates).

You spot the cognitive dissonance there?

Maryzsnewaccount · 04/07/2018 09:20

I can't work out whether these people are just having fun, or whether they actually believe what they are saying.

It's really odd. A bit like having a conversation with a toddler about an invisible friend. Of course, with toddlers, it's possible to go "yes dear, here's an extra plate for your friend" knowing that they will eventually grow out of it.

argumentativefeminist · 04/07/2018 09:20

Dragon I'd be more than happy to accept "female" in legislation where we're very specifically talking about the provision of things for vaginas/people that have vaginas. Gynaecology, for instance. So long as people with surgically constructed vaginas were included or had alternative, respectful, equal quality healthcare provided, I can't see that I'd get too worked up about that, but I can't speak for everyone who's on the same "side" as me.

argumentativefeminist · 04/07/2018 09:21

Mary I really believe it, glad to have given you some amusement 😂🙄

Original poster
Dragoncake · 04/07/2018 09:22

Hmm. So no definition of 'identifying as a woman'.

AAK I know that this is old hat for you and others. But with an influx of new posters it's worth asking the question IMO.

OP posts:
RedToothBrush · 04/07/2018 09:23

I can't work out whether these people are just having fun, or whether they actually believe what they are saying.

They are indulging in an example Big Lie propaganda, regardless. It has the same effect whether they believe it or think it a joke. Totalitarianism.

Moonkissedlegs · 04/07/2018 09:24

I'd be more than happy to accept "female" in legislation where we're very specifically talking about the provision of things for vaginas/people that have vaginas. Gynaecology, for instance. So long as people with surgically constructed vaginas were included

Wow. Just so you know, 'gynaecology' is not a 'surgically constructed vagina'. The two are not related. There is no reason to include people with surgically constructed fistulas under the umbrella of gynaecology, apart from to make them feel better. Why do people with surgically constructed vaginas have to be included in gynaecology?

RatRolyPoly · 04/07/2018 09:24

So no definition of 'identifying as a woman'.

Gave one earlier.

"Are you a woman?", "yes I am" - voila, identified.

"All the women here, please raise you hand" - identified.

RedToothBrush · 04/07/2018 09:25

I'd be more than happy to accept "female" in legislation where we're very specifically talking about the provision of things for vaginas/people that have vaginas.

That's very generous of you. Are we supposed to be grateful, as the way you phrase it, it sounds like a concession...

birdbandit · 04/07/2018 09:25

If you remove the biology bit out of your definition of the word "woman", what are you left with? Expected behaviours? Sartorial choices?

If there is no common biology, are we to perform someone else's idea of "feminity" in order to be considered a woman?

So where does that leave us legally? Good luck in a few years in fighting a sex discrimination case, of the idea of what a woman is has been redefined to just saying you are.

argumentativefeminist · 04/07/2018 09:26

Identifying as a woman = feeling that "woman" is the gender identity that most suits you and that makes you happiest. Wanting to use the term woman to describe yourself and have others use the same term and potentially certain pronouns to describe you and address you. Whether people should or shouldn't be able to identify as whichever gender they want is probably not an argument I'm going to be able to win, but that would be my definition of what I'm arguing people should be able to do and be respected for doing.

RedToothBrush · 04/07/2018 09:26

Even if I don't identify as a woman and remain forever silent, I don't cease to be a woman.

Moonkissedlegs · 04/07/2018 09:26

So where does that leave us legally? Good luck in a few years in fighting a sex discrimination case, of the idea of what a woman is has been redefined to just saying you are.

This.

AngryAttackKittens · 04/07/2018 09:26

The argument that I put forward is that woman shouldn't be a physical fact, it should be an identity that you can choose.

And we are saying "no", because sex is a physical fact. No amount of pomo arglebargle will change that.

Original poster
Dragoncake · 04/07/2018 09:27

Argumentativefeminist thanks. I sense some common ground here.

But... Back to that definition! Is there one for all purposes?

RatRolyPoly I disagree that your definition is as accurate and useful as 'adult human female' . But thanks nevertheless.

OP posts:
Maryzsnewaccount · 04/07/2018 09:28

But how can you believe it? How can you believe that someone born with a penis is "really a woman inside"?

What's the difference between that and believing someone born with black skin can "really be black inside" or someone who is very, very thin being a "fat person inside"?

I'm not trying to be offensive, I truly don't get how you can redefine "female" and "woman" in your head to include people born with XY chromosomes, testicles and a penis.

Maryzsnewaccount · 04/07/2018 09:29

And even if you do redefine all those things, how can you expect everyone else to just nod along with the re-definitions.

Just as if I was to say a duck is a chicken, I can believe it all I like, but people would be seriously sceptical if I insisted everyone else in the entire world do the same.