Alternative Definitions of 'Woman'?

[Dragoncake]

Do you disagree with the definition of 'woman' as 'adult human female'?

If you disagree, what is your own definition of the word?

A woman is....what exactly?

Is there even a definition? Or is 'woman' simply indefinable in your view?

On the 'A Woman is an Adult Human Female' thread I asked those who disagree to provide their alternative definition of the word.

Several people engaged, but nobody seemed able to do this.

If you have one, please post your alternative definition here. Thanks.

Can anyone tell me what I have in common with a transwoman, such that I am required to share spaces with them (such as a prison cell, hospital ward, rape counselling group, naked showers at the pool... at some places this is obligatory before bathing).

My gender identity = none (I reject stereotypes & expectations as sexist & oppressive)

My sex = female, ie of the class producing large immotile gametes

TW gender id = feminine

TW sex = male, ie of the class producing small motile gametes

Can anyone point out any shared characteristics that would constitute the basis for sharing such spaces?

My behaviour wouldn't have changed, because I'm still me and I'd still be sat here having breakfast and getting into pointless arguments online. However, hypothetically, I'd feel a bit better about myself because I had an identity I liked and other people were respecting it.

You can't identify as Black if you're white because Black is an ethnicity. It's about where you and your family originate from. You know that. It's grounded in a physical reality whereas I'm arguing that "woman" shouldn't be.

Woman = an adult human female, or one who identifies as such
Woman = an adult human female, or a man.

It's grounded in a physical reality whereas I'm arguing that "woman" shouldn't be.

You don't think 'woman' is grounded in a physical reality?

But woman is a physical reality.

Are babies aborted or their bodies dumped in the garbage because of their gender identity?

RedToothBrush
You mean there are people trying to fuck with your head by telling you black is white about a simple truth

My head hurts because I'm banging it against the wall. Less painful than the nonsensical non-answers in this thread...

It's about where you and your family originate from.

A bit like how every person on this planet and has ever existed on this planet originated from the body of a woman.

We all know what a woman is and that it is grounded in physical reality.

You can't identify as Black an adult female human if you're white an adult human male because Black woman is an ethnicity denoting one's sex. It's about where you and your family sex-based oppression originate from. You know that. It's grounded in a physical reality whereas I'm arguing that "woman" shouldn't be because sex is as much physical reality as race

You can't identify as Black if you're white because Black is an ethnicity. It's about where you and your family originate from. You know that. It's grounded in a physical reality whereas I'm arguing that "woman" shouldn't be

Why should ethnicity be grounded in physical reality of gender shouldn’t be?

Why shouldn't we widen the bandwidth of what it means to be white, or Black, when we should apparently be doing so with what it means to be a woman?

What is woman then argumentativefeminist ?

If it's not 'grounded in physical reality' then what is it? Is it a soul? An essense? A mindset? A set of behaviour - no that's physical reality again...

Do you think that female sexed people should have a word to describe their 'grounded in physical reality' experiences?

You can't identify as Black if you're white because Black is an ethnicity. It's about where you and your family originate from. You know that. It's grounded in a physical reality whereas I'm arguing that "woman" shouldn't be.

Again, the cognitive dissonance is amazing.

Its pick and mix reality.

argumentativefeminist
I know you're ignoring my posts after your complaints on the other thread that I was trying to discuss things with you on a discussion forum, but some dictionary definitions for you

Sex:
1.the sum of the characteristics that distinguish organisms based on their reproductive function

1. either of the two categories, male or female, into which organisms are placed on this basis

Gender:
the behavioral, cultural, or psychological traits typically associated with one sex

It is important that we keep this distinction, so that meaning is not lost. Sex is biology, gender is socially constructed roles. You seem to be using these terms in an arbitrary and inconsistent way.

Female is a sex category. Woman is also a sex category (see the definition above).

Right. So how about, say, female genital mutilation. Something that only happens to girls. And because they are girls. If girlness has no objective reality how do we name it?

It's grounded in a physical reality whereas I'm arguing that "woman" shouldn't be.

But you haven't given any explanation why other than that some people would prefer it that way. Rachel Dolezal would prefer to identify as black, but many people (and I suspect that includes you) don't think it's reasonable for her to do so. There's no simple medical test for race, but chromosomes can be tested easily. If anything sex is more solid than race on a medical level (which of course in no way erases that massive impact race has on a person's life because societal bias). So you've picked the category that's easier to prove medically as the one that shouldn't be based on physicality (even though in the vast majority of cases we also categorize people visually based on sex with a high degree of accuracy), and the only reason seems to be that what most people would call personality you're calling gender.

Why shouldn't we widen the bandwidth of what it means to be white, or Black, when we should apparently be doing so with what it means to be a woman?

Good question. Someone should let BLM know they are not inclusive enough.

You can't identify as Black if you're white because Black is an ethnicity. It's about where you and your family originate from. You know that. It's grounded in a physical reality whereas I'm arguing that "woman" shouldn't be.

Cos you decide that.
Someone else might decide to argue that you CAN identify as black.

And when you start to undermine the true, thats what people do, for their own political agendas.

What is to STOP identifying as black, apart from political will, when you have destroyed the foundations of the truth.

This is the point.

Just because you agree with this position, does not mean that you will with the next.

Thats the problem with totalitarian thought processes. You never know when your own truths 'which can not be desputed' will be lost.

I'm seriously getting sick of this nonsense.
If you - TRAs - want to change legal and scientific definitions to include literally the opposite definition, then you need to make your case clearly.
Elitist semantic games and 'it's complicated' and 'be nice' is Not. Fucking. Good. Enough.
I'm embarrassed for you.

If we are going to widen the "bandwith" of what "woman" includes, then what do you propose to rename the class of human beings who can gestate and give birth to offspring? This is a specific and unique ability distinct to a particular group; what should this group be called?

"Someone should let BLM know they are not inclusive enough."

Yup. All Lives Matter = rightwing attempts at disrupting black rights activism.

Transwomen are women = neoliberal attempts at disrupting feminist activism.

Same old masters. Different clothing.

You can't identify as Black if you're white because Black is an ethnicity. It's about where you and your family originate from. You know that. It's grounded in a physical reality whereas I'm arguing that "woman" shouldn't be.

Really? So having XX chromosomes, female sex organs and features and biological make-up is not "grounded in physical reality"?

Heads-up: being female is exactly about me and where my family originate from. I am a female human being who was carried and birthed by another female human being.

If you genuinely feel that identifying as black is impossible but identifying as a woman is fine, then you are beyond help.

I dont have all the answers here. I've read Judith Butler two fucking times and I didn't understand 90% of it. What I do know is that I want anyone who wants to be a woman, to be comfortable and respected in claiming that identity. I know that I think male and female are sexes, and that man, woman, neutral, nonbinary, agender, genderqueer, and any others I've missed are genders.

Your sex is based on physicality, I'm not that postmodern. Some of us have some biological bits that have certain medical needs and have certain risks, like FGM. We should address those needs and risks, regardless of whether the person with the biological bits is a woman, a man, genderqueer, whatever.

But I don't think your personal identification as a woman is necessarily based on your having or not having a vagina. I dont physically have the intellect to describe what I would like woman to be defined as, other than "a gender identity that people can identify with if they want to", but I know that I don't like the definition based on having a vagina, because it's exclusive and it makes some people feel hurt and uncomfortable.

I'm not interested in the many and various ways that the majority of feminism chat can put forward their woman=sex category = vagina argument. I fully understand that argument and I see it all the time. Which is why I was drawn to this alternatives thread and offered my alternative. It's not perfect. I'll probably change it about 5 thousand times before I die. But it's what I think right now, and to be quite honest with you I'm not prepared or well read or intelligent enough to have opinions beyond the ones I've put here. This is literally everything I think on the topic, I haven't worked out the rest, so there's no point asking.

I identify as the Queen.

Therefore I have the right to move into Buckingham Palace and claim Royal assets as my own.

We can just change the law to reflect this. This makes it real.

It is not based on physical reality. Its just a feeling.

If I feel like the Queen, I must be the Queen.

This is equally non sensical.

All it is about, is failure to say no. The product of a spoilt generation who can not cope with the word 'no'.

How about broadening the definition of 'man' to include males who want to live like gender stereotypes of women ?

Why is it always women having to push back against people born with penises?

We have and will probably always will have to fight for our rights, our spaces and our position in society.

I think this is what I find interesting and which has yet to really be explained

Woman is a category which should be expanded to accommodate self identification

Race is a category which should not be expanded to accommodate self identification

I would really love an explanation of this

NB i am not holding my breath that I’ll get an explanation, of if I do I expect it will be something along the lines of

“Because!!! You bigot!!!1!!!1”