Alternative Definitions of 'Woman'?

[Dragoncake]

Do you disagree with the definition of 'woman' as 'adult human female'?

If you disagree, what is your own definition of the word?

A woman is....what exactly?

Is there even a definition? Or is 'woman' simply indefinable in your view?

On the 'A Woman is an Adult Human Female' thread I asked those who disagree to provide their alternative definition of the word.

Several people engaged, but nobody seemed able to do this.

If you have one, please post your alternative definition here. Thanks.

with regard to surgically constructed vaginas having access to gynecological services ................ good luck with their treatment of you when you suffer from prostate cancer

argumentativefeminist
What dictionary are you using? Mine defines woman as 'an adult female human being'. There is no mention of 'gender identity'. I explained this in more detail to you the other day on a different thread.

"Woman" is not a gender identity, its meaning is "adult human female", and its definition is similar to other species, such as a ewe being an adult female sheep.

The categories male/female are sex categories, not gender categories. The gender categories are masculine/feminine. It is possible to be a masculine woman or a feminine man, but your sex category does not change.

Bertrand is the only one not irritating the hell out of me and actually reasonably engaging with what I'm saying, so I'll answer that.

I'm not sure I did feel like that as a very little girl, I didn't really have any concept of gender and since everyone told me I was a girl, and that felt fine to me, I went with it. But I think, though it's hard to say for sure because I never tried it, that if I'd felt uncomfortable being a girl, I would have just asked to be recognised and addressed as a boy instead. Certainly since I've been old enough to properly understand gender and the existence of more than boy/girl (probably about age 11/12? Probably slow as hell but I was pretty much living in my own unobservant world before) I would have felt able to say that I wanted to be something else. From this point onwards I have felt that my gender is a choice I make, and that if it feels uncomfy at any time, I can change that and adopt something else.

I know I've been very lucky in that experience. My family would have been supportive and I had a pretty feminist and trans accepting education from my peers, and that's not a given for many people.

The thing is, how we 'identify' is all very lovely and fluffy and everything, but it doesn't actually help with anything in real life.

Like, it's a bit of a dull example, but when I am trying to choose which contraception to move onto next because I've had my kids and I'm sick of my body being fucked by hormones, but I don't want to risk a pregnancy, how I 'identify' is completely and utterly irrelevant.

I have to make that decision because I am a woman, not because I identify as one.

Are you a woman?", "yes I am" - voila, identified.

Doesn't make it true though does it.
It just makes someone deluded, or a liar, unless of course they are speaking as a biological women.

Moon I would argue that you have to make that decision because you're female, i.e. you have a vagina and ovaries and all that sort of stuff. It's a crap choice, but if you had those inside bits and identified as a man, or as nonbinary, you'd still have to do it. Whether or not you identify as a woman is unrelated to it.

I think its unkind to suggest that identity doesn't help with anything in real life. Surely anything that can help people to stop feeling like they hate themselves and their body is a helpful thing.

Speaking only for myself

I probably wouldnt have a massive issue with 'losing' the word women as such

As long as the word female was kept and exemptions made on that basis

But that definition will be taken as well...

So were all those people on crosses who said they were Brian of Nazareth actually Brian of Nazareth simply because they said they were?

To me, this is the difference between individual subjective belief (I am a woman because I identify as one) and group objective fact (woman = adult human female). It's not looking at individual's wants or beliefs but the need to have a group definition that protects everyone.

Forgive me if I am way off. I'm still fairly new at articulating this.

Moon I would argue that you have to make that decision because you're female, i.e. you have a vagina and ovaries and all that sort of stuff. It's a crap choice, but if you had those inside bits and identified as a man, or as nonbinary, you'd still have to do it. Whether or not you identify as a woman is unrelated to it.

Exactly. Which is why 'identity' should be kept out of politics. Keep facts, facts.

rat does that apply to any other definition? For example "Rabbit: long eared, medium sized, burrowing rodent. Or one who identifies as such"

If you show me a rabbit that has the thinking capacity to challenge it's socialised identity and accept a new one, I'll let it be whoever the fuck it wants.

From this point onwards I have felt that my gender is a choice I make, and that if it feels uncomfy at any time, I can change that and adopt something else.

I agree with this. Gender is the social role expected of those who share our sex. To some extent we can choose to adopt or reject these expectations. I say to some extent, because we cannot control the way others treat us because of our sex, but we are not compelled to only conform to the expectations of dress and behaviour which is associated with our sex.

I have a lot of interests which are usually associated more with men than with women, and often buy clothes from the men's departments (sturdy jeans with proper pockets, for example). I view this as simply part of my personality, although others might consider this as going against my gender. What is never in any doubt, however, is my sex. I am a woman.

Surely "feminine" should be the gender identity? It's more easily understood as the long, flowy hair/dress wearing gender stereotype than "woman" which is generally recognised as another way of saying female when referring to humans just like when someone talks about a doe everyone will know that's a deer, a female deer. It's much more logical for people to identify as "a feminine man" or "a masculine woman" when their gender identity is relevant, in the same way that you'd only identify someone as "a black/white/tall/short/etc woman" when the adjective was relevant. The rest of the time they can accurately be described as a woman, or a person if sex-based differences aren't relevant.

If you show me a rabbit that has the thinking capacity to challenge it's socialised identity and accept a new one, I'll let it be whoever the fuck it wants

Would that stop it ending up in a pie or as fox food though?

Bertrand is the only one not irritating the hell out of me

I don't understand why you would be irritated by people asking you to define the terms that you are using. Surely this is the means to a civil exchange of ideas?

Omg this thread hurts my head...

How do you 'feel comfy in the woman gender'?
What exactly is the woman gender? What do you mean when you say woman gender? What are you describing here? What is a male bodied person describing when they say it? What is a male bodied person saying they identify with exactly, and how do they know it should be correctly called 'woman gender'?

It's much more logical for people to identify as "a feminine man" or "a masculine woman" when their gender identity is relevant.

Indeed. Because we have accepted, objective definitions of man (adult human male), woman (adult human female), masculine (having qualities traditionally associated with men) and feminine (having qualities traditionally associated with women).

See how that works?

Omg this thread hurts my head...

You mean there are people trying to fuck with your head by telling you black is white about a simple truth.

Women are women. There is no defining about it. Attempts to do so are gaslighting and are political ideology and deliberately are trying to disguise and supress reality.

Moon I would argue that you have to make that decision because you're female, i.e. you have a vagina and ovaries and all that sort of stuff. It's a crap choice, but if you had those inside bits and identified as a man, or as nonbinary, you'd still have to do it. Whether or not you identify as a woman is unrelated to it.

Surely this is contradictory. She has to make this decision because she is a woman - an adult female human. Nobody who is not a woman can identify as one, because woman is not an identity, it is a biological fact.

Sex = male/female
Gender = masculine/feminine
Gender identity = masculine person/feminine person

You don't have to be a man to be a masculine person; you don't have to be a woman to be a feminine person.

argumentativefeminist you are so close to getting this!!! Woman is the word that we need to describe the people who have to make decisions to prevent pregnancy. The people who need smear tests not prostate exams. We have to keep this word because we are discriminated against because of things that only happen because of our biology - we are raped, we have babies/maternity leave, we are (as a class) smaller, slower and weaker than men. Women present differently with heart attacks and respond differently to drugs. We can’t identify out of that.

A trans/non binary person can present how they want, and be treated with the courtesy that they deserve. They will not be refused the correct medical treatment for their biology. But they don’t need cervical smears from their neovaginas, and they can’t be allowed to have access to spaces and opportunities for those who grew up with female biology.

By the logic of self-declared definitions, I can say that as jobs are a social construct (which they are, FAR more than our sexed bodies), I identify as the CEO of Google.

Bet nobody would believe it if I wrote it on my CV, though...

I would argue that you have to make that decision because you're female, i.e. you have a vagina and ovaries and all that sort of stuff

this is transphobic. female can also mean penis etc in which case said organ is a female penis. Watch you don’t get deleted, matey

AF- so if you had decided to start identifying as a boy, how would your behaviour have changed?

And can you explain why I can't identify as black?

So here I am:

I am a woman because I am an adult human female.

I have agender presentation because I pay no attention to what I look like. Practicality is my only guide.

I have agender expression because my personality is a mix of feminine and masculine qualities.

None of this is difficult if you have objective definitions of the terms you are using.