A woman is an adult female human

[Pratchet]

Of the sex whose reproductive role is to gestate and bear young.

Let's just say this while we still can. Because it's true, and however many people try to make us lie about it, or remain silent, it will always be true.

In times of universal deceit, speaking the truth is a revolutionary act.

It hurts MY feelings to see 'transwomen are women'. It damages MY mental health to see that, it makes ME feel erased and MY identity feel destroyed. I have a voice and I deserve that voice. WE deserve it.

I am Spartacus. A woman is an adult female human. Sex is binary, immutable and defined by reproductive role.

If you report me, or get me banned you shoot the messenger. Because this is true and will always be true. And this day, this day of a lie, I WILL say it.

#Spartacus

This has actually made me cry and I don't cry easily.

I'm pretty close to it.

I agree with you Mina. Repetition has never been a problem on mumsnet, otherwise there would be no bloody business case.

How many threads on whether 'Ashley' is common, which handbag is trashy and whether saying 'breast is best' is facist?

This is one of the most significant debates regarding the freedoms of women @MNHQ and you are failing to have the backs of women. Shame on you.

It doesn't matter what we think, because we're women. Only men matter.

do note that we won't be able to allow threads like this going forward

Threads of women coming together and supporting each other through stating their common biology won't be allowed?

Good lord

that isn't conducive to civil debate and seems likely to make Mumsnet feel hostile by most trans people, regardless of their ideology.

This is feminism chat. Where women come to discuss things which affect women and girls from a feminist perspective. You'd have to wonder why male people choose to hang around here getting out of shape about women discussing biological facts and reporting the shit out of them.

Mumsnet is indeed a very hostile environment to women. Well done @KateMumsnet

@AccioWine - me too. I haven't been an outspoken feminist for decades, not since I was at a male-domintaed uni where you had to be to get anywhere. But I find this scary. Our society has become post-factual with alarming rapidity. Facts are optional now. That's something well worth speaking out against and fighting against.

Glad the thread is back, blessed day.

But Kate - this kind of moderating is also inflammatory, surely you can see that? And from where I am sitting, itseems likely to make Mumsnet feel hostile by mostwomen, regardless of their ideology.

I do not intend this to be rude. I intend this to point out the lack of equity. Why would a site for mothers think it's not ok to be a hostile environment for many trans people but be perfectly fine to be a hostile environment for many women?

You can't have it both ways, sorry.

Well said LangCleg

There really isn’t a debate about biology. It just kind of ‘is.’

There’s a debate about whether women’s rights should be removed - that’s the debate. I’m up for debating that. I know where I stand. Bring it on.

And if someone wants to ‘debate’ biology well they can do that too. But they need to bring data. Lots of data. Replicated, peer reviewed data.

And if they’re saying that humans can change sex then I’ll need to borrow their phone as well, to call the Nobel committee and tell them their search is over for the year. Because that’s some earth shattering kind of discovery.

When the consultation on the removal of all the rights we’ve fought and died for starts with a statement that’s demonstrably, scientifically false then yes, anger. Lots and lots of it.

I'm so relieved that I'm not alone in finding that my mental health has really taken a hit over this. The doxxing, moles in Facebook groups and mailing lists, physical attack on Skepticat, bomb threat at Hastings, blocking stairwells at Bristol, contacting of employers, and targeted harassment of women like Venice, it's all terrifying and I live in constant fear of being "outed", stalked, and harassed, which is why they do it.

This is terrorism, and it's having exactly the impact intended.

Hi kateMumsnet, the reason why threads like this are important is because we can share our concerns about the possibility of women being erased as a class. It's important to debate this but there's such a climate of fear around at the moment that it's becoming difficult to speak about. The fact that it's deemed controversial to state biological facts concerns me greatly.

Although I have been wondering this - about human society deciding that women are yukky (blood and all that) and animal because they remind men that they are not the Masters of The Universe they think they are (cos have to have all the blood and pain that women aren't supposed to say anything about) and stops them believing that they are the Masters of The Universe. Not coherent I know - just a musing.

do note that we won't be able to allow threads like this going forward

Threads like what?

What's changed? And why?

Have the guidelines been updated?

I’ve seen many say that not only are they TransWomen, they are actually Female.
That is impossible and easy to disprove.
If someone wants to believe that about themself, fine - nobody else should be forced to agree though.

do note that we won't be able to allow threads like this going forward

Wait, what?

Spartacus has been assassinated?

Will the new guidelines be updated to include no affirmation threads for women?

This thread was in response to Penny Mordaunt saying "transwomen are women" and the consultation starts from that basis. Which is a clear lie that is utterly uncivil at its core.

@MNHQ. This is why the thread was started. Are we not allowed to comment on a false statement made by a government minister, in charge of women and equalities on the day that she releases a goverment consultation which could threaten the rights of all women and girls? THIS is your stance?

I'm so relieved that I'm not alone in finding that my mental health has really taken a hit over this. The doxxing, moles in Facebook groups and mailing lists, physical attack on Skepticat, bomb threat at Hastings, blocking stairwells at Bristol, contacting of employers, and targeted harassment of women like Venice, it's all terrifying and I live in constant fear of being "outed", stalked, and harassed, which is why they do it.

And mumsnet HQ are on the side of the abusers. Did their morals leave at the same time as their common sense?

I'm very much getting the impression that either MNHQ believe TWAW, but are pretending neutrality so they don't lose all their users, or are they being very heavily leant on from somewhere.

Either way I'd respect them a lot more if they just came out and said. MNHQ sex is a protected characteristic too, and denying women their biology is a pretty shitty thing to do.

It's very abusive behaviour from the top to the bottom. Strength everyone, never give up, never surrender.

I agree with others that a thread where users can gather to express similar views was the kind of community building which I thought Mumsnet was all about. I find it tremendously comforting to know that there are other women out there who have a shared understanding of sex and gender, and a shared concern about the dangers posed by self ID to women and girls, as well as a shared alarm about the contortions language is being forced through to redefine womanhood to accommodate people who are not biologically female. I choose to describe myself as a pregnant woman, not a pregnant person, and I see my right to choose how I define myself and my sex under threat. I need these threads, whether or not I post on them, to keep me sane.

Presented without comment.

I am Spartacus. A woman is an adult female human. Sex is binary, immutable and defined by reproductive role.

Yy to this ^^
And I will not be silenced for stating facts.
And if you want a debate, come at me bro... I’m not stopping you but you do not get to silence me because you can’t argue with facts.

The purpose of the thread seems to us to be to gather posters together to repeat the same point over and over again. In effect, the thread as a whole is inflammatory

Absolutely not - but we don't think that people are gathering for civil debate here. As we've said elsewhere, when the fundamental terms of the debate are contested the only thing we can really do is to put civil debate at the heart of our moderation.

What on earth...!!!!????

Are you actually saying that the women here can only discuss issues if they take the form of a Civil Debate? So any other structure is wrong? What about information sharing? Highlighting talks and newspaper articles? What about supporting women who have been raped? None of that takes the form of debating.

When women ask for incidences of everyday sexism, or how they have been dealt with in medical issues, that is not a debate.

There are a billion threads about all manner of issues which are not in the form of a bloody debate.

Could you please list the structures around which women can talk about their rights.

On a feminist board.

On a website called mumsnet.

You insisting that any mention of this biological fact which is at the root of women's oppression takes the form of a debate is nonsensical. It makes no sense at all. Can you explain?

Think a new exodus to the other place is on the cards. I am going to join today if I get the chance

If I'm about to get banhammered for insubordination - love you all, see some of you at the other place, and never give up. This is so obviously wrong that even if we lose this round there's no way it can stand in the long term, because every human alive knows what a woman is.

This thread was in response to Penny Mordaunt saying "transwomen are women" and the consultation starts from that basis. Which is a clear lie that is utterly uncivil at its core.

If you are insisting on a debate, here is the initial premise.

Mumsnet is a public forum, anybody can come and engage in the debate.

Or is it the premise of the house that should one side hold the majority opinion, the debate must not go forward?