Urgent: banning gender identity conversion

[Pratchet]

www.buzzfeed.com/patrickstrudwick/gay-cures-could-be-banned-under-a-new-law-in-the-uk?origin=shp&utm_term=.nw24d18NQk#.keZANE7n3Y
Homosexuality 'conversion cures' must be banned,

They are sneaking in 'gender identity' to the law so that ONLY AFFIRMATION will be sllowed. 'Watch and wait' could be banned as conversion therapy. Kids need our help.

This legislation must be restricted to homosexuality, to allow childrenntime to become happy in their changing bodies. Help.

I hope a lot of lurkers saw you slice and dice Hilary's terrible arguments, unsound links and turgid prose.

Bowl do you chat with colleagues about this stuff?

Yes and no. On the direct academic side, no. I think people in the academic environment are terrified of repercussions.
I know my immediate boss is an old school feminist because Ive seen her in action. the company I’m at just now seems to not show any woke or anti science stances at all - a massive part of what we do relies on accurate data collection and reporting - there’s no space or scope for fucking around with definitions of sex, it’d be a danger to people’s health. kidney function measurements need accurate sex data for example - it can be life or death.

A couple of colleagues are very gender critical, but the physical office I work based from is very small and I mainly wfh. These are conversations I think I’d need to be on ‘daily tea round’ face to face level with people.

People in my field who I know really well but now work elsewhere? Yes. The women are all extremely concerned. The men (with a few notable exceptions) are mainly unaware.

Waffly answer, sorry. I send cautious feelers out all the time, feeling like I’m giving some sort of secret feminist handshake or something. That makes me really angry - discussing women’s rights shouldn’t be something anyone needs to hide.

Anyway, absolutely no one I know in the scientific or medical sides of my life has any truck with the notion that a woman is anything other than an adult human female.

Is the House of Lords / Commons devoid of ex-scientists ? Did they all have an arts background? They gave up biology as they couldn't do the scientific stuff? It shows...

Frankley I think we scientists need to take a stand.

Bowl, I know it's a pain but it would be so valuable if you reposted your important unemotional statement every time a fearful parent turns up on Mumsnet at their wits end about a child or teen who's expressing gender confusion and demanding medical transition.

Most parents are desperate to do the right thing, but Mermaids are where the media encourages them to turn. People with your sort of expertise provide an authoritative alternative. If parents know for sure how incredibly dangerous and unethical medical transition is for anybody who's not fully adult, then they'll face hell and high water rather than get their DC puberty blockers

Surely Bowl, if transwomen have a birth cert changed etc, there are going to be FtM/MtF appearing in drugs trials soon unbeknowsnt to researchers?

Prawn, they are not going to believe an anonymous poster on MN though are they, above their doctor. What we need is someone like Prof Winston to do a TV programme or something

We need an actual scientist to come out as it were.

I might start writing to them. How about Davis Attenborough?

Actually, come to think of it, doctors are scientists, and plenty of them have MDs and PhDs. It's a disgrace. How do you square that Bowl with what you said?

absolutely no one I know in the scientific or medical sides of my life has any truck with the notion that a woman is anything other than an adult human female.

Are there 2 factions in medical sciences? I just don't understand how doctors give the kids the hormones.

This is the ideological position.

Yeah but transgender studies is a social science not a science R0wen.

I know, but it is a starting point for many TRAs arguments, even if not always acknowledged. Would be interesting to ask scientists, politicians etc to comment.

I know.., this is what I was saying about it being as though there’s a forum somewhere with people going ‘right, rumbled on the can’t change sex thing, no one is buying that... ok let’s try ‘always been that sex, see how that flies.’

I’m a bit wary of addressing individual parents. I’m not a medical doctor, I can’t give medical advice, and I also believe that 99% of parents are genuinely trying to do the right thing. They’re navigating something they have no experience of, that there’s no real research or experience in. It must be horrendous for them. Then they’re getting biased advice (which I believe is also grossly unethical) from what are essentially pressure groups, not unbiased evidence based voices. I’m happy to provide my opinion or any data and/or explanation or jargon for any parent etc wanting to know, I just wouldn’t want them to feel like I was targeting them or implying they were failing their kid. It’s a genuine minefield :(

Agree totally that there needs to be people standing up. Problem is those who do will be hounded so it needs to be someone who isn’t going to lose their livelihood over it. I’m trying to think... Ben goldacre is generally fairly scathing of poor logic, maybe worth a tweet at him?

I don’t hold out much hope: years back, someone I knew wastgreayened for using mice in their research (for cancer, said mice were extremely well treated and humanely pit down at the first sign of illness.) we hoped CRUK would come out with a statement along the lines of ‘ look no one likes using animals, in the uk we have serious regulation, and this work is needed and saves lives.’

They didn’t, of course because they’d be targeted (this was the time all the awful shit at Huntingdon life sciences was going on) and people were being physically hurt/bomb threats.

It’s a tough one.

I’ll argue with Hilary all day or anyone else on here who comes in with all the science word salad.

Are there 2 factions in medical sciences? I just don't understand how doctors give the kids the hormones.

I don’t either. I don’t think there are two factions, that sound too equal. There are always people who go into medicine to play god. I’ve taught hundreds of medics over the years and you can pick them out at 19. 95% of the class are genuine, hardworking and in it as a vocation. The other 5% should never be allowed near a patient.

There are always medical Mavericks - some do great stuff, others don’t have good motives.

The point about trials is an excellent one - I’m actually just on maternity leave but once I’m back I’ll be pressing that point (before if the opportunity arises) . I’m fairly sure it’ll be dealt with efficiently - the stakes are too high and screening processes very very strict.

Then they’re getting biased advice (which I believe is also grossly unethical) from what are essentially pressure groups, not unbiased evidence based voices

Questions are being asked about the influence of lobby groups. There will be more questions.

blogs.spectator.co.uk/2018/07/labour-and-tories-finally-see-the-truth-about-the-gender-debate/

blogs.spectator.co.uk/2018/05/why-are-some-mps-trying-to-shut-down-the-transgender-debate/

www.heraldscotland.com/news/16311379.schools-forget-girls-in-rush-to-adopt-pro-trans-guidance-campaigners-claim-as-christian-group-threatens-legal-action/

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3298016-John-Bercows-rant-about-Gender-Critical-women

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3250175-Girl-Guides-Panel-discussion-at-Speakers-house-woman-male-woman-male-male-male

Materialist
It's a language game, that's all it is. There's no science.

I think that's exactly what's going on. We're talking about two different things. We're talking about science, they're talking about re-defining words and making laws.

The question "Can humans change sex?" has a different meaning if you have redefined sex to mean gender, or legal sex.

The bit I'm not sure about is whether by redefining the word 'sex', they think that they have actually changed scientific reality. I don't think we should underestimate the scientific illiteracy of many people.

But seeing as we're on Mumsnet, maybe Hilary can explain how babies are made in pomo land.

I'm not a fan of psychoanalysis at all Place one so don't like that article. It is the mansplaining of psychology. Hilary I've watched that guy's TED talk now. Thanks for sharing. He comes over well at first but by the end he's basically saying "gender isn't binary; There's a scale. In fact there are two scales.., a scale of femininity which is Associated with the female sex but not always and a scale of masculinity which is Associated with the male sex but not always and most of us draw from each" Now then I wonder what we might call these TWO opposing scales. These two separate scales from which we all draw. If is a classic example of reverting to a binary way of interpreting personalities. We gender critical feminists want to smash the binary because it is harmful. Not reassure people that they can pick some from the female menu and some from the male menu. It is a classic example of how transgenderism (which is really just genderism) reinforces the gender binary over and over again.

To answer the question I put to you regarding experience, it was because I believe if you worked with, listened to and tried to understand trans people you would have a better insight into why I say conversion therapy is wrong for those diagnosed with gender incongruence.

I'm the CEO of a LGBTQI organisation and have over 45 years experience of working to support LGB & Trans,NB,Q people from teens to 70+, this work has given me a greater understanding of the trans community and gender identities both within and out of the gender binary.

Working with individuals with gender incongruence gives you a better understanding of the issues they face while trying to live what they would describe as their authentic lives. Those who transition within the binary just wish to live and be accepted as their true gender, (matching their gender identity). Those who's identities are not within the binary just want to be able to be legally recognised as Non-binary Gender.

I cannot see how being trans is any different to any other gender or how this could upset anybody else. Live and let live is my moto.
Peace and love Hilary

Those who transition within the binary just wish to live and be accepted as their true gender, (matching their gender identity). Those who's identities are not within the binary just want to be able to be legally recognised as Non-binary Gender.

Hilary, I think the main reason we have different views on this is because of the importance attached to the notion of gender by transgender people. I don't think I can improve on what Sarah says about the gender critical view:

We gender critical feminists want to smash the binary because it is harmful. Not reassure people that they can pick some from the female menu and some from the male menu. It is a classic example of how transgenderism (which is really just genderism) reinforces the gender binary over and over again.

Transgender people find gender roles restrictive, so they want to move between them and re-label themselves. Feminists find gender roles restrictive, so we want to do away with them altogether, and everyone to just be themselves, without the requirement for labels.

Sarah
Is the article you are referring to the one I linked to? It wasn't all the details of the psychoanalysis that I thought was interesting, it was the results of the author's patients 'deconstructing' gender by analysing what it is and how it affects their lives:

I have however also noticed that once gender is deconstructed within the microsociety of my group, that hardly any of the trans-gender patients go on to pursue physical reassignment procedures. It could be understood that if there were no gender, there would be no need to change it.

Which is sort of making the same point that we are.

Hilary, there's no such thing as having an opposite sex brain in your body. Transgenderism disproves the theory of uniquely male or female brains.

hilary I have a few questions of my own, since I answered yours

Do you have any medical or scientific qualifications?

are you aware of the ICH GCP good clinical practice guidelines and their historical context, being introduced in the wake of atrocities such as the Nazi medical experiments, Tunguskee syphilis experiments and scandals like thalidomide?

do you understand the prescribing guidelines for, for example GnRH analogs, the side effects, the damage they do and that they are being prescribed not only off label but against the recommendations not to prescribe to any person with coexisting mental health issues*?

And finally - are you worried about being sued or prosecuted criminally in the future for being part of a body that pushes these drugs on minors against all current ethics and safety guidelines?