Urgent: banning gender identity conversion

[Pratchet]

www.buzzfeed.com/patrickstrudwick/gay-cures-could-be-banned-under-a-new-law-in-the-uk?origin=shp&utm_term=.nw24d18NQk#.keZANE7n3Y
Homosexuality 'conversion cures' must be banned,

They are sneaking in 'gender identity' to the law so that ONLY AFFIRMATION will be sllowed. 'Watch and wait' could be banned as conversion therapy. Kids need our help.

This legislation must be restricted to homosexuality, to allow childrenntime to become happy in their changing bodies. Help.

HilaryMGSDC
I am a believer of factual evidence and progressive change when it comes to treatment of people and the human rights of the individual to live their life
So am I but you haven't produced any. I don't understand why you consider turning the clock back to antique sex stereotypes progressive when we have made huge progress in understanding the plasticity of the brain and the influence of environment and culture. You don't seem to have any understanding of normal child development.
Lobotomies were hailed as a modern, progressive treatment once. Doctors received Nobel Prize. I knew someone who was given a lobotomy. It was anything but benign. What you are championing calls for the maximum amount of scrutiny and scepticism due to the huge irreversible impact it has.

It may well have got lost in the recent pages of text but there was important & relevent discussion following the Victoria Derbyshire Show last week which focussed on children and young people and the role of Mermaids.

thread:
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3294478-Victoria-Derbyshire-show-today-transgender-children-buying-time-by-delaying-puberty

snappity you said If a child has severe gender dysphoria which brings on depression etc, they are not healthy and it is medically appropriate and ethical to treat the root cause of their acute distress.

Well yes, that is what we are suggesting. Snap and Hilary, do you really think that gender/sex dysphoria simply springs out of nowhere with no precipitating factors? What if the root cause of a child's gender/ sex/ body dysphoria is child abuse?

@HilaryMGSDC Can you recommend any books from psychologists or sociologists that argue solidly that gender identity is innate? As you may be aware there is a mass of well established research that suggests gender develops socially and is not innate. I would suggest for you Cordelia Fine and Judith Butler among many others. I'm not interested in pop science or suggestions that "this is all very complex no one really understands it more research is needed" but actual books please.

OldCrone poster Bowlofbabelfish
Transgender brains are more like their desired gender from an early age

I did not see a review of this study on the link to the other thread, just a review of an earlier study.

www.giga.uliege.be/cms/c_277137/en/transgender-brains-are-more-like-their-desired-gender-from-an-early-age

Brain activity and structure in transgender adolescents more closely resembles the typical activation patterns of their desired gender, according to findings to be presented in Barcelona, at the European Society of Endocrinology annual meeting, ECE 2018. These findings suggest that differences in brain function may occur early in development and that brain imaging may be a useful tool for earlier identification of transgenderism in young people

Dr Bakker says, “Although more research is needed, we now have evidence that sexual differentiation of the brain differs in young people with GD, as they show functional brain characteristics that are typical of their desired gender.”

Dr Bakker’s research will now investigate the role of hormones during puberty on brain development and transgender differences, to help guide and improve future diagnosis and therapy for GD adolescents.

Dr Bakker comments, “We will then be better equipped to support these young people, instead of just sending them to a psychiatrist and hoping that their distress will disappear spontaneously.”

more Interesting research

Gender Cognition in Transgender Children
Abstract
A visible and growing cohort of transgender children in North America live according to their expressed gender rather than their natal sex, yet scientific research has largely ignored this population. In the current study, we adopted methodological advances from social-cognition research to investigate whether 5- to 12-year-old prepubescent transgender children (N = 32), who were presenting themselves according to their gender identity in everyday life, showed patterns of gender cognition more consistent with their expressed gender or their natal sex, or instead appeared to be confused about their gender identity. Using implicit and explicit measures, we found that transgender children showed a clear pattern: They viewed themselves in terms of their expressed gender and showed preferences for their expressed gender, with response patterns mirroring those of two cisgender (non-transgender) control groups. These results provide evidence that, early in development, transgender youth are statistically indistinguishable from cisgender children of the same gender identity.

Kristina Olson, Associate Professor Degree From: Harvard University My research focuses on the following topics within social cognitive development: gender nonconformity in childhood, prosocial behavior, understanding status and inequality, prejudice and discrimination.

Olson, K.R., Durwood, L., DeMeules, M., & McLaughlin, K. A. (2016). Mental health of transgender children who are supported in their identities. Pediatrics, 137 (3), 1-8. (2016)

OBJECTIVE: Transgender children who have socially transitioned, that is, who identify as abstract the gender “opposite” their natal sex and are supported to live openly as that gender, are increasingly visible in society, yet we know nothing about their mental health. Previous work with children with gender identity disorder (GID; now termed gender dysphoria) has found remarkably high rates of anxiety and depression in these children. Here we examine, for the first time, mental health in a sample of socially transitioned transgender children.

CONCLUSIONS: Socially transitioned transgender children who are supported in their gender identity have developmentally normative levels of depression and only minimal elevations in anxiety, suggesting that psychopathology is not inevitable within this group. Especially striking is the comparison with reports of children with GID; socially transitioned transgender children have notably lower rates of internalizing psychopathology than previously reported among children with GID living as their natal sex.

I have various issues with this particular paper. It does not withstand the levels of scrutiny with which I am familiar in my field of work (biochemistry), although I am prepared to accept fields differ.

do you really think that gender/sex dysphoria simply springs out of nowhere with no precipitating factors? What if the root cause of a child's gender/ sex/ body dysphoria is child abuse?

May 2018 Guardian article: 'Schools pulled into row over helping transgender children: As more teens come out as trans, experts clash over how schools should help'
(extract)
"[ Stephanie Davies-Arai Transgendertrand] says her broader concern is that by affirming students’ gender identity, schools may be nudging them down a route that can lead to cross-sex hormones and life-changing surgery without enough time to reflect. Teachers, she says, “are essentially being forced to collude in an experimental approach towards children with gender dysphoria”. She adds: “You can support children and accept them, without affirming their belief that their body is ‘wrong’.”

Adele Robinson (not her real name), a head of year at a secondary school, shares Davies-Arai’s worries. The school has had 12 children, all girls, come out as transgender in the past 18 months. The majority, she says, have autism, and some have experienced sexual abuse.

When they come out, she says, they have brought in information sourced from Tumblr blogs and YouTube videos. Although her team does its best to “support every child in a loving, kind and compassionate way”, she feels that staff are too frightened to challenge what she sees as harmful practices: “We have chest binders worn in school, which is horrible. If a child was cutting, they would be straight in with a counsellor. Yet damaging developing breast tissue goes unquestioned. It’s a gross failure in terms of child protection.”

[Susie Green Mermaids] disagrees, and argues for a biological underpinning to transgender identity: “If a child or young person consistently, insistently and persistently states their feelings, to ignore, punish or repress their gender identity would effectively be reparative therapy.”

At Wadebridge school, Miles’s former headteacher says: “You just have to put the child at the centre of everything to enable that child to feel comfortable and supported. The biggest message I’d want to get out is that this is not a transgender issue, this is a supporting young people issue.”

www.theguardian.com/education/2018/may/15/transgender-row-teachers-afraid-challenge-breast-binding

HilaryMGSDC

You quoted some of the abstract from this paper

Olson, K.R., Durwood, L., DeMeules, M., & McLaughlin, K. A. (2016). Mental health of transgender children who are supported in their identities. Pediatrics, 137 (3), 1-8. (2016)

Including the part which says:
Especially striking is the comparison with reports of children with GID; socially transitioned transgender children have notably lower rates of internalizing psychopathology than previously reported among children with GID living as their natal sex.

When you read the whole paper, you get a different impression. Here are some extracts:

Comparisons between previous reports of children with GID and the current sample should be made cautiously, however, because the criteria for inclusion (transgender identities vs GID) and specific measures of internalizing psychopathology ... differ across studies.

... parents of transgender children could have biased reporting, reflecting a desire for their children to appear healthier than they are. We have no reasons to believe this was an issue but in the future aim to include other reporters (eg, teachers) to address this concern that others are likely to raise.

So the authors recognise that a comparison with other studies is open to errors, as is their method of compiling results simply from reports from parents, who they acknowledge may be biased in favour of reporting good mental health in their children.

It doesn't seem to be a very rigorous study.

HilaryMGSDC

This link that you posted is just another version of the press release for the conference paper that you linked to previously.
www.giga.uliege.be/cms/c_277137/en/transgender-brains-are-more-like-their-desired-gender-from-an-early-age

Do you think this study is of particular importance? As far as I am aware, no studies have shown that male and female brains are distinguishable from each other, but I know that proving that they are is the holy grail for those who believe in 'lady brain'.

It's hard to make any comment on this study, since there is only an abstract available, but this bit hints at it being somewhat inconclusive:

Furthermore, we found intermediate patterns in WM microstructure in adolescent boys with GD, but only sex-typical ones in adolescent girls with GD. These results on brain structure are thus partially in line with a sex-atypical differentiation of the brain during early development in individuals with GD, but might also suggest that other mechanisms are involved.

HilaryMGSDC
Just a short comment on the other paper you linked to
rcgd.isr.umich.edu/seminars/Winter2017/Olson.Key.Eaton.2015.pdf

The children being studied here are 5-12 years old and pre-pubescent, and
The participants in this study are transgender children who are allowed to live everyday life congruent with their gender identity.

I really do wonder what that means. Can you explain how a pre-pubescent child lives in an opposite sex 'gender identity'?

Thanks @HilaryMGSDC I'll take a look at these tonight. No books then? There are shelves full of books that explain how gender develops socially

A Guide to Gender (2nd Edition): The Social Justice Advocate's Handbook

Brain activity and structure in transgender adolescents more closely resembles the typical activation patterns of their desired gender,

Hilary the point I’m trying to get across is that the basic premise of this paper is built on a false statement. There ARE NO ‘typical patterns of activation’ for gender or sex

If you have a look at the thread I posted earlier, working neuroscientists critique the various MRI / fMRI papers in great detail.

floorplan I would agree with you - this study would not pass review in my field either.

OldCrone
Just a short comment on the other paper you linked to
rcgd.isr.umich.edu/seminars/Winter2017/Olson.Key.Eaton.2015.pdf
I really do wonder what that means. Can you explain how a prepubescent child lives in an opposite sex 'gender identity'?

I believe what that are saying is that those children in the study had responses appropriate for their age similar to their sex/gender or cross sex gender identity / gender expression. It seemed self evident to me.

text from study
Conclusion
In summary, our findings refute the assumption that transgender children are simply confused by the questions at hand, delayed, pretending, or being oppositional. Instead, transgender children show responses that look largely indistinguishable from those of cisgender children, who match transgender children’s gender expression on both more- and less-controllable measures. Further, and addressing the broader concern about transgender individuals’ mere existence raised at the outset of this article, the data reported here should serve as evidence that transgender children do indeed exist and that their identity is a deeply held one

Prawnofthepatriarchy Imnobody4 R0wantrees seafret SarahCarer OldCrone

We all have our view/position on the outcome of studies looking into whether gender identity / brain gender differences can be measured. I think we would all agree that this is difficult to prove or disprove as it was mentioned earlier that you cannot take an image of our sense of being, our thoughts, beliefs, our sexual orientation/attraction or our gender identity.

We can all look at studies and point to the statements that support our own positions or if you prefer your beliefs. This does not move forward the argument on whether people diagnosed with gender incongruence should be subjected to the same treatment that would be considered as conversion therapy for sexual orientation.

Looking at sexual orientation, a majority on this thread believe it is not a choice but it is an innate part of one’s core identity that cannot be altered, yet this cannot be measured in a way that you wish to impose on those who think gender identity is innate and also part of one core identity that is not a choice or that can be measured.

I have an open mind on the causality but lean towards an unconscious development of the brain (or let’s say mind if you prefer) that affects our core identities when it comes to defining belief in one’s sense of sex, sexual identity and gender identity.

I note that it was mentioned by some that you do not believe there is such a thing as gender identity as you do not think you have one yourself. It could be possible that due to having no conflict between your own gender identity / sex or gender you have not had to contemplate this in the same way a person diagnosed with gender incongruence would. Not having realised the possibility that you may have a gender identity that is not conflicted with you body is not prove that an internal sense of gender identity does not exist.

Some of you have stated your background and I don’t assume what people do or what their experiences are, but I am interested in whether any of you have worked in the field of treating or supporting people with the diagnosis of gender incongruence (gender dysphoria/GID).

Hilary: it's not impossible to disprove. Transgenderism disproves the theory of unique male-female brain traits.

HilaryMGSDC
I believe what that are saying is that those children in the study had responses appropriate for their age similar to their sex/gender or cross sex gender identity / gender expression.

That wasn't what I was asking, though. I was asking how a child, or indeed anyone, lives in an opposite sex "gender identity". Or as they put it:

To be included in the current study, children had to be 5 to 12 years old and live in all contexts as the gender expression “opposite” of their natal sex.

What does this mean, other than stereotypical modes of behaviour or dress? I suppose they could be using names typical of the opposite sex and other people use opposite sex pronouns for them. So again, I ask, what does it mean for a prepubescent child to live like someone of the opposite sex?

HilaryMGSDC
Not having realised the possibility that you may have a gender identity that is not conflicted with you body is not prove that an internal sense of gender identity does not exist.

In what way might a gender identity conflict with one's body? What do you see as the relationship between gender identity and the body? Are you talking about sex dysphoria (a revulsion with one's sexed body) or something else? And even if someone is disgusted by their own body, does this necessarily have any effect on their "gender identity"?

Thanks @HilaryMGSDC Do you have a copy of that book.? It seems to be more about a pragmatic/social justice approach to truth and is written by a stand up comedian with no obvious academic credentials. I was thinking of buying it anyway but what i really need is something to bridge the gsp i.e. sonething that starts at thd gender is a social construct position, criticises it and explains how people have arrived at the boy brain girl brain position. The thing is, he mentions academic sources in his appendices and I wondered if there were referenced books in there that are more the kind of thing I'm looking for.

*gap not gsp

Yes I have read the book. It's a very good book that talks about concepts of gender and gender identity in relatiion to sex characteristics. There is a long list of references to other material. It is written by a hetrosexual man, who uses comedy in his representations to engage his audience. Check his website itspronouncedmetrosexual.com/

Pratchet OldCrone

Some of you have stated your background and I don’t assume what people do or what their experiences are, but I am interested in whether any of you have worked in the field of treating or supporting people with the diagnosis of gender incongruence (gender dysphoria/GID)?

You did not answer my question. I would like to know your experience in the above.

Why on earth do you want to know my experiences?

Transgenderism disproves the theory of unique male-female brain traits

I'm trying to help here. This ^ is helpful information for you.

@HilaryMGSDC
It is not necessary to be a specialist in a particular area to be able to read and understand the published literature.

I do not work in this field, but I don't think you have answered your own question. What experience do you have in this field?

I found this article after reading another thread on here. What is your opinion on this doctor's approach?

Deconstructing Gender in Trans-Gender Identities

Discussion on this thread

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3303573-This-is-what-the-Portman-Clinic-had-to-say-about-Gender-Transition-in-2002

My area of expertise is human developmental genetics (and allied fields.)

Humans cannot change sex. To tell a child they can change sex is incorrect. To give a healthy child drugs that are off label, unmonitored and actively contraindicated in anyone with mental health issues is irresponsible, unethical and abhorrent. Parents and patients are not being given impartial full information on these drugs. Children are being sterilised and undergoing risky and painful surgery.

I’m employed in a field that has a LOT to do with medical ethics, drug development, directly working with patients, patient facing materials, clinical trial design, paediatric trial populations etc.

Affirmative treatment, blockers and surgery are GROSSLY unethical.

If I exposed patients and their families to the kind of biased information and clinical risk that dosing with blockers does, never mind sterilising children, not only would I be fired, I’d be facing criminal charges with serious time attached.

I cannot believe this is happening. I condemn it in the strongest possible terms. This is going to be a huge scandal.