Urgent: banning gender identity conversion

[Pratchet]

www.buzzfeed.com/patrickstrudwick/gay-cures-could-be-banned-under-a-new-law-in-the-uk?origin=shp&utm_term=.nw24d18NQk#.keZANE7n3Y
Homosexuality 'conversion cures' must be banned,

They are sneaking in 'gender identity' to the law so that ONLY AFFIRMATION will be sllowed. 'Watch and wait' could be banned as conversion therapy. Kids need our help.

This legislation must be restricted to homosexuality, to allow childrenntime to become happy in their changing bodies. Help.

Some people are still at the incredibly sexist stage of thinking women can be blinded with what they claim is 'science'.

I imagine I won’t get an answer to my question. It’s funny but I never do - nobody will stand up and say they believe humans can change sex.

But this entire issue hinges on that question. Because children are being given affirmative treatment on that premise. Women’s rights are being stripped on that premise. Child safeguarding is being damaged by that premise.

We are all expected to act and believe as if it is true. But nobody will ever say they believe it.

I find that quite staggering. Nobody has the courage of their conviction to say that they believe it. But they advocate massively damaging policies be codified in law on the premise it’s true.

Mind. Boggling. Duplicity.

^You are aware that the intersex community have repeatedly asked that proponents of trans ideology leave them out of their claims? It's not considered good form to drag them in*

twitter.com/mrkhtake2 comments:

(extracts)
"We need to talk about what’s happening to the intersex community. I mean, seriously. I know I talk about it all the time but it’s critical, so here’s a quick thread with a potted background and a few articles raising intersex voices."

"Gender radical trans organisations can’t represent intersex people as their beliefs are interphobic. I witness this all the time. The gender radical view that chromosomes have nothing to do with sex and my inability to conform means I am called a man a lot by trans activists.
In other words, I must be “fixed” or comply. If you want to begin to understand the damage that does, this article contains the perspective of women with MRKH and the experts that work with them." (continues)

threadreaderapp.com/thread/1013106135002476544.html

Thanks for the links, Hilary. I've downloaded the paper you linked to and just started to read it. In the first paragraph it says

Slaby and Frey (1975) demonstrated that children move through a series of stages: first learning to identify their own and others’ sex (basic gender identity or labeling)

So they seem to be using the terms 'sex' and 'gender' interchangeably, and it appears that they are simply saying that children recognise their own sex at this age, as I speculated in my last post.

I'll read the rest of it now and come back if there is anything else relevant in it.

And they try to dress it up as science. What rot.

Hello it's Pratchet. I've changed my name.

This idea that there is no truth, only opinions, is a deeply toxic one. It’s probably got its origins in our current cultural state, with 24 hours news, the internet, rampant individualism and lack of critical thought.

I think it's called postmodernism.
Postmodernism is difficult to define, because to define it would violate the postmodernist's premise that no definite terms, boundaries, or absolute truths exist.

The pomo-addled think they can change reality by the liberal use of word salad.

Pratchet

And they try to dress it up as science. What rot
Like the 'new improved' ads. Gender no longer the old limiting sexist stereotypes but new and improved to let you express your totally authentic self.

Yy. I used to wonder what it would be like to live in a dystopia, where everyone around you believed a lie, and only a few people knew the truth. It's very distressing to find out.

HilaryMGSDC

Another extract from the paper you linked to earlier, which is quite interesting regarding how children develop and learn about the differences between the sexes in terms of societal expectations and how this affects their behaviour.

Reading it, it's quite clear that whenever they mention 'gender' they actually mean 'sex', most (or possibly all) of the time.

Children’s attempts to understand the implications of different essences are particularly important for social categories because individuals can belong to the categories and identify with them, and thus they have implications for ingroup and outgroup attitudes and behaviors... For example, if children think that wearing pink, frilly dresses result from‘‘girlness,’’ boys should avoid them and girls should love them. Once children learn that such features are not fundamental to being a boy or a girl (i.e., the gender consistency stage), however, adherence to these more superficial aspects of the category can be relinquished. Bem (1989) made this argument for why it makes sense to teach young children that genitals, not appearance or activities, are the critical distinctions between males and females.

What they are saying here is that once children understand that their sex is fixed, (that is, they won't change sex if they play with the 'wrong' toys, for example), they actually feel more comfortable with stepping outside the gendered expectations. Also that children should be taught that the defining feature between the sexes is their genitals.

I don't think this paper reinforces the view that children should be taught that they can change sex.

R0wantrees
Are you aware of Bowl's proffessional experience & qualifications?
No I am not aware of who they are as the pseudonym used does not identify them to me. But the question is, would it make a difference to my statements on this thread?

GirlDownUnder
Through the socialization process, children are taught what is expected, and accepted, of them as a boy or girl virtually from birth.
Are you stating that boys are / should be taught that only ‘manly’ things are expected and accepted for them ie blue toys, dumper trucks, and no crying?
And for girls only pink toys, dolls, and being soft?

No I am not saying that, In an answer to OldCrone I am stateing the conclusion of people working with child gender development is that children are aware of the gender they identify with by the age of 3 to 4 years old.

OldCrone
I don't think this paper reinforces the view that children should be taught that they can change sex. Another extract from the paper you linked to earlier,

I never said that the paper said anything about it advising children should be taught they can change sex. I used the paper to answer your question in a previous post - What is your evidence for this?

Reading it, it's quite clear that whenever they mention 'gender' they actually mean 'sex', most (or possibly all) of the time

I see you now agree with me that people use sex and gender interchangeably to mean male or female.

GardenGeek
Its the perfect example of double think and believing everything and nothing simultaneously. Incredible achievement

Yes! Sex, Gender & Gender Identity is complex! Gender Identity can be fixed or fluid. This is not double think, it’s based on factual evidence. Hence Intersex people, Trans People and those who identify as Genderfluid exist.

Prawnofthepatriarchy
Your comments illustrate the problems with the ideology quite clearly. The intersex waffle is a transparent attempt to muddy the waters

Which ideology? I am talking about banning conversion therapy for sexuality and gender identity, and have enhanced my statements with facts that support my reasoning.

Are you aware of Bowl's proffessional experience & qualifications?
No I am not aware of who they are as the pseudonym used does not identify them to me. But the question is, would it make a difference to my statements on this thread?

I don't know if you're new to the FWR board? BowlofBabelfish is a regular poster, she has been posting for quite a while.

''and in answer to your question, yes it probably would.

Bowlofbabelfish Prawnofthepatriarchy Pratchet or

Mimmymam

Sex is binary
There is no third sex
There is no opinion on sex, by the way. It’s factual.
I imagine I won’t get an answer to my question. It’s funny but I never do - nobody will stand up and say they believe humans can change sex

Can humans change Sex?

I have already given an answer to this question in an earlier post.

I’m wondering now if you are reading my posts and digesting my position on the reasoning behind my support for a ban on conversion therapy for both sexuality and gender identity.

There seems to be a lot of interest in my view on whether humans can change sex? Although I do not believe this is relevant to the question: should gender identity be included in a ban on conversion therapy?

So, let me dispel your worries about not getting an answer to what seems to be an important question to many on this thread.

To avoid confusion as some people, use sex and gender interchangeably to mean male and female, lets lay out what the terms used mean in my posts. I will also give some other information that will inform the reasoning for my answer.

I know I stated this earlier, but some may not have read the earlier posts (I think they should though as they lay out my position on conversion therapy).

I am using the term SEX as biological sex as determined by sex chromosomes, genes, primary and secondary sex characteristics.

I am using the term GENDER to mean Men, Male or Women, Female or Non-Binary Gender.

I am using the term GENDER IDENTITY to mean a persons internal sense of gender.

Sex is complex, and it most definitely is not binary!

*Do I believe you can alter your bodies genetic, chromosomal sex?

No, But I do believe that none of us are 100% male or female. We all have the duality of developing gonads and primary sexual characteristics of either sex, that we could developed secondary sex characteristics as male or female.

In the previous post I raised the issue of Intersex as an example that Sex development is complex. We assign babies Male or Female dependent on their primary sex characteristics but with intersex babies this is not always clear or correctly assigned. I raised the issue of intersex not to conflate intersex people with transgender people but to demonstrate that sex is complex and not binary.

Prof. Alex Shepard Glasgow University ‘Doctors usually assign 1 of 3 sexes at birth: Male, Female or Intersex. There are in fact 6 variations of biological sex dependent on number and type of gonads present’.

I do agree that most people are assigned male or female, but as you see from the statement above sex is defined by primary sex characteristics and 6 variations is more than 2. Therefore, sex is more than binary.

Ok, lets take this complexity further. Our primary and secondary sexual characteristics are dependent on our sex chromosomes and hormonal influences. Other chromosomes affect our physical development. It is possible that humans can develop physically to be more masculine or feminine.

As I stated previously we know very little about brain development or variations in brain development, but it is probable that differences will exist between individuals. Some people believe that hormonal influences can determine how the brain develops, which in turn leads to how an individual’s core identity develops. But I see from your previous posts that some of you do not believe in brain sex. The jury is still out but research is ongoing so eventually compelling evidence may be found one way or the other.

So, lets look at the proposition that brains are not sexed.

If the brain is not sexed everyone has a brain capable of being in a male or female or intersex body as they all function the same

Your posts agree that sexual orientation ‘attraction’ is not a choice so it must be caused by some unconscious influence on brain development.

The brain may still be influenced by hormonal levels, both androgen and oestrogen which could influence how the brain reacts to environmental changes (intersections of identity).

Taking account of the above to answer your question I believe all the following inclusively:

Humans cannot change sex (see clarification above) but they can change some of their secondary sex characteristics, they cannot change their unconscious core identity: sexuality, gender identity, they are not 100% male or female but a combination of both sexes which develop dependent on chromosomal and hormonal influences.

Transsexuals who transition to live as the opposite binary sex to that assigned at birth do not change sex they ‘are the sex’ that matches their gender identity, the causes of this are still unknown or unproven but some research into brain function is pointing to a similarity in transsexual brains that align with brain functions of those with a matching gender identity, similarly the causes of sexual attraction are unknown.

If you believe that humans have a none sexed brain you must accept that male, female intersex and transsexual people have similar brains that can be affected by chromosomal and hormonal influences and have unconscious influence on our core identity. These influences could affect sexual orientation, and gender identity

Transsexual people are not delusional they recognise their bodies have developed differently to their core gender identity, they act using hormones and surgery to change their body to match their gender identity.

You're not dispelling worries Hils you're just repeating yourself. You still haven't explained what you understand to be gender ie what many of us would say is a social construct. You are therefore missing a crucial step in the logic when you say transsexuals are becoming the sex that matches their gender identity. You can't mash your body into becoming your idea of a social construct. Sex isn't changeable. Hope that allays your misgivings.

It’s is grossly unethical to place a healthy child on puberty blockers.

If a child has severe gender dysphoria which brings on depression etc, they are not healthy and it is medically appropriate and ethical to treat the root cause of their acute distress.

Snap if a child is suffering from depression you could also begin by treating the symptoms, rather than jumping to conclusions about the cause. To go straight to hormones is draconian. There are other routes that don't have irreversible effects.

If a child has severe gender dysphoria which brings on depression etc, they are not healthy and it is medically appropriate and ethical to treat the root cause of their acute distress.

No it is not. The ethical route is to treat them in a way that doesn’t physically (or mentally) damage them.

Puberty blockers - damage
Cross sex hormones - damage
Telling a child their normal, healthy body is ‘wrong’ - damage

Telling a child they’re not the problem, society’s insistence of narrow gender stereotyping is the problem and helping them come to terms with their healthy body - ethical.

HilaryMGSDC
In an answer to OldCrone I am stateing the conclusion of people working with child gender development is that children are aware of the gender they identify with by the age of 3 to 4 years old.

Did you actually read that paper, and think about the language and terminology they were using?

The reason it's important that they don't distinguish between 'sex' and 'gender' is that the meaning of 'gender identity' changes according to whether you are using 'gender' as a synonym for 'sex' or to represent the social and cultural expectations of someone of a particular sex.

In the paper, they use gender as a synonym for sex, so the term 'gender identity' means simply that the child has an understanding that they belong to a particular sex, which is based on their genitalia.

The paper does go on to say some quite interesting things about children's understanding of sex and gender - how they go through stages of realising that some things are 'for girls' and some 'for boys', a fear that they might change sex if they digress, a later realisation that they can step outside gendered expectations without negative consequence. There's obviously a lot more to it than that if you read the whole paper.

I see you now agree with me that people use sex and gender interchangeably to mean male or female.

Of course I am aware of that, but that doesn't mean it's not a problem. In the context of this paper, it means that children being aware of the gender they identify with by the age of 3 to 4 years old just means that they know what sex they are (based on their genitalia). Is that what you mean by 'gender identity'?

Slight correction to the last paragraph in my previous post. The paper doesn't say that children identify with a gender - it says that they identify (that is, recognise) their own and others’ sex. The use here of sex and gender as synonyms means that they call this recognition of their own sex and that of others 'gender identity or labelling'.

Slaby and Frey (1975) demonstrated that children move through a series of stages: first learning to identify their own and others’ sex (basic gender identity or labeling)

I am using the term SEX as biological sex as determined by sex chromosomes, genes, primary and secondary sex characteristics.

I am using the term GENDER to mean Men, Male or Women, Female or Non-Binary Gender.

Men, male, women, female are SEX categories, based on the characteristics in your definition of sex. The corresponding gender categories would be masculine and feminine. Non-binary gender would then just be someone who feels neither masculine nor feminine, or perhaps sometimes one and sometimes the other.

I am using the term GENDER IDENTITY to mean a persons internal sense of gender.

So whether they feel themselves to have a masculine or feminine personality? Or a bit of both? Or neither?

1If a child has severe gender dysphoria which brings on depression etc, they are not healthy and it is medically appropriate and ethical to treat the root cause of their acute distress.

My DS was suicidal for months. He had a therapist Via CAMHS. His life was at risk. Even so, he had to see a consultant child psychiatrist just to get antidepressants prescribed. Because they can be dangerous.Let that sink in,Snappity.

James Kirkup Spectator article May 1st 2018, Why are some MPs trying to shut down the transgender debate?'

"This is an issue addressed by Dr Polly Carmichael, who runs the GIDS, in a recent talk to the Association for Child and Adolescent Mental Health. In her thoughtful hour-long lecture, she said this:

“The rapid rise in the number of assigned females…. exemplifies the importance of keeping discourse open and allowing different voices to be heard.

“You might say the increase in the numbers of assigned females coming forward is [because] that it’s easier for females to talk about their gender-diverse feelings so what we are seeing is an increase in awareness getting towards a better representation of the true prevalence of this among females.

“A converse explanation, a question: are there issues for young women around how they perceive their gender? There has been a worry by some that people who would previously have had an outcome around sexuality are now having an outcome around gender.”

(In other words, these are girls who do not readily identify with the predominant idea of femininity and are sexually attracted to biological females, and who would, a decade or two ago, have grown up to consider themselves lesbians.) Dr Carmichael’s conclusion:

“The truth is we don’t know, but we need discussion in order to be thinking about what this could mean.”

The embedded link to Polly Carmichael's lecture 'Developments & Dilemmas' is here

Also from the article:

In evidence to another Commons inquiry in 2015, Mermaids argued that GIDS should make such drugs available much more quickly. The GIDS team has generally resisted that call, more than once saying that “any decision around hormone treatment needs time and considered thought.”

And in evidence to that earlier committee, Dr Bernadette Wren of the GIDS said this:

“I know that Susie and Mermaids would like a fast track so that young people who are already well into puberty and feel that they know that they want to move forward into physical intervention would bypass our assessment process and move straight into physical intervention. We feel that is not an ethical way to practise.”

Here’s another summary. A transgender charity that says it is engaged in lobbying lobbied politicians and doctors to change the way children are treated by doctors. The doctors declined to make that change because it would be not be ethical to do so." (continues)