Urgent: banning gender identity conversion

[Pratchet]

www.buzzfeed.com/patrickstrudwick/gay-cures-could-be-banned-under-a-new-law-in-the-uk?origin=shp&utm_term=.nw24d18NQk#.keZANE7n3Y
Homosexuality 'conversion cures' must be banned,

They are sneaking in 'gender identity' to the law so that ONLY AFFIRMATION will be sllowed. 'Watch and wait' could be banned as conversion therapy. Kids need our help.

This legislation must be restricted to homosexuality, to allow childrenntime to become happy in their changing bodies. Help.

OldCrone
Hilary, I think the main reason we have different views on this is because of the importance attached to the notion of gender by transgender people
We gender critical feminists want to smash the binary because it is harmful. Not reassure people that they can pick some from the female menu and some from the male menu. It is a classic example of how transgenderism (which is really just genderism) reinforces the gender binary over and over again.
I understand your view is that you wish to smash the restrictions you see to be imposed by gender. I to as a feminist and socialist, wish to see through social justice the barriers and controls of women’s rights, and the rights of all, to be changed through equality and equity of opportunity.

It’s my view that trans people are fighting the same battle. Trans non-binary people are acting by challenging the binary model of gender, prevalent in western culture, by forming gender identities outside the binary and asking for legal recognition. Trans binary people also support the freedoms you are looking for by their challenge to societal controls on sex/gender.

The opposition I hear from gender critical feminists is that those trans people dressing and performing in a gender stereotypical way are supporting the gender binary model and the limits to equality that imposes. I think you are mistaking gender expression with gender identity and they are two separate things.

In your gender critical view of the world, once you achieve you aims, what would the future reality look like for the observer?

Pratchet
Hilary, there's no such thing as having an opposite sex brain in your body. Transgenderism disproves the theory of uniquely male or female brains.

I have never said there are uniquely male of female brains. Gender is complex and not binary, there are many gender identities both within and out of the binary model, so I do not understand your point.

Bowlofbabelfish
Do you have any medical or scientific qualifications?
I have no medical qualifications, as for scientific qualifications I have many professional qualifications that could cross over between scientific, engineering and health and wellbeing.

I do not prescribe or promote any treatment, I leave it to the professional experts to design & manage care pathways to alleviate harm for their patients.

Hilary: Transgenderism is predicated on 'brain-body mismatch'. Otherwise it is sex dysphoria, which is a mental health issue.

Hilary do you worry that your organisation leaves itself open to legal action in the future by encouraging affirmative, irreversible treatments for minors?

What do you think about the way adults are pushing for demedicalisation for adults but increased medicalisation for children?

Does your organisation support confidential disclosure? If so, how do you square this with child safeguarding practice in the UK (I assume you’re UK based.?)

It’s my view that trans people are fighting the same battle. Trans non-binary people are acting by challenging the binary model of gender, prevalent in western culture, by forming gender identities outside the binary and asking for legal recognition. Trans binary people also support the freedoms you are looking for by their challenge to societal controls on sex/gender.

But that's not the same battle at all. By 'forming new gender identities' they are reinforcing the idea of gender. And by pushing for legal recognition of these new genders, reinforcing it still more.

We all have a sex - male or female. Many (most?) of us do not conform at all times to conventional male or female stereotypes, which I think makes most of us 'non binary'. This has no effect on our sex - we are still male or female.

If trans binary people could just present as they wish, but without insisting that they had changed sex, that would be in line with the feminist view. You can't change sex, but be whatever gender you want - it's called personality.

I think you are mistaking gender expression with gender identity and they are two separate things.

Can you define both terms clearly so that I can see the distinction?

In your gender critical view of the world, once you achieve you aims, what would the future reality look like for the observer?

Everyone presents and behaves how they wish, but we all know what sex we are. A bit like the 80s... I know that is opening me up to accusations about being regressive, but I really think people were more progressive in their thought then, in terms of gender.

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3304870-What-does-the-transgender-community-make-of-1980s-androgenous-pop-stars

Yesterday, I started reading a recently published book, 'Trans: Exploring Gender Identity & Dysphoria- a guide for everyone (including professonals)' edited by Dr Az Hakeem.

www.drazhakeem.com

He has written the introductory chapters.

Source:
www.amazon.co.uk/TRANS-Exploring-Identity-Dysphoria-Pulling/dp/1911246496?tag=mumsnetforum-21

R0wantrees
What do you think about the book Trans.

OldCrone
I think you are mistaking gender expression with gender identity and they are two separate things
GENDER EXPRESSION
Gender expression encompasses all the ways you present yourself that are governed by gender norms, which, as you likely now realize, is just about everything. Clothing, mannerisms, gait, pitch of voice, language choices, pronunciation of language, posture, grooming, social interactions, and much, much more all go into what we would merge together in our minds to be an individual’s gender expression.
HOW PEOPLE USE GENDER EXPRESSION
Gender expression can be a way of demonstrating your gender identity, but it can also be an intentional way of rejecting your gender identity. It can align with the gender norms attached to your biological sex, or not. It can be driven by your want to conform, your want to rebel, sexual or relational desires, or something else altogether.

GENDER IDENTITY
Our sense of identity in relation to gender, how we see ourselves as a gendered person, Man, Woman, Neither, Both.

.

Bowlofbabelfish

The organisation I work for does not promote any action, we advise people to follow the advice of the professional health and wellbeing services that manage the individual care pathways for transsexuals and trans people, be that NHS or Private health care. There is no one size fits all package of treatment for trans people.

Why do you think adults are trying to demedicalize the care pathway for transsexual health care? Every one I talk to would like trans health care improved not removed.

Materialist

Of course I condemn all Hate Crime / Incidents whoever they are aimed at. Any threat should be reported to the Police on 101 or 999 if life is in danger. I regularly ask people if they have received threats of violence or abuse and encourage the reporting of such acts. Unfortunately it is members of the trans community who are most at risk and suffer abuse on a daily basis just for being themselves and trying to get on with life.

If you are wondering how I know this, I do voluntary work for the police.

Most of the transwomen I speak to feel unsafe using any gendered facilities and they prefer not to access them unless absolutely necessary.

OK, so gender expression is just appearance, presentation, personality. Fine.

Gender Identity I still don't understand.

You said:

GENDER IDENTITY
Our sense of identity in relation to gender, how we see ourselves as a gendered person, Man, Woman, Neither, Both.

This doesn't help me to understand what you mean, so I found this definition that you gave earlier:

I am using the term GENDER IDENTITY to mean a persons internal sense of gender.

In order to understand this definition we need a definition of 'gender'

Yours is:

I am using the term GENDER to mean Men, Male or Women, Female or Non-Binary Gender.

This definition is unsatisfactory, since men, male, women and female are sex categories, not gender categories. Non-binary gender is some sort of gender but is not defined at all.

I don't know what my gender identity is, or even if I have one. What should I do to work out what my gender identity is or whether I have one at all?

HilaryMGSDC
Why do you think adults are trying to demedicalize the care pathway for transsexual health care?

Are you not aware of the current government consultation on reform of the GRA? The proposed changes, to make changing of legal sex a matter of simply making a declaration, with no medical diagnosis, implies that being transgender is simply a lifestyle choice, with no need of any medical treatment.

If the law is changed, this will apply equally to transsexuals, who might benefit from medical treatment, as well as the people the changes are designed for - those who wish to 'live as' the opposite sex, but do not wish to make any physical changes to their bodies. If being trans is not an illness, as Theresa May put it, it doesn't require any medication. It is possible that this is one of the aims of the GRA reform, to reduce pressure on the NHS.

Most of the transwomen I speak to feel unsafe using any gendered facilities and they prefer not to access them unless absolutely necessary.

Would they be happy if the men’s went unisex and the women’s remained single sex? If not, may I ask why?

If the women’s goes unisex, any man can enter, and harm our hypothetical transwoman. And women using the facilities - is this disadvantage to the many for the benefit of the few acceptable? If so why?

If our hypothetical transwoman is using the ladies so that they have a lower chance of being attacked, even though men can now enter, they are effectively using the women in that facility as a human shield - do you understand why women do not find that acceptable?

Why are you not campaigning for safe third spaces? Why are women being put at risk from men?

Would they be happy if the men’s went unisex and the women’s remained single sex? If not, may I ask why?

Because if there is a reason for women only spaces then that reason applies equally to trans women so your proposal is illogical.

What reason would apply to women only spaces?

Spell it out for me.

If you are in possession of a penis or a prostate then women's single sex spaces are not for you.

@HilaryMGSDC As a gender critical feminist it is my view that gender identity is an internalized version of society's gendered expectations. Neuro-typical children often respond very instinctively to social cues as their language and communication develops (as toddlers) and their understanding of themselves reflects the categories imposed by the world around them. I can well see how a toddler could switch the category they internalize from very early on for a whole variety of reasons and begin to internalize the category normally imposed on the opposite sex. Many GC feminists never felt they fitted into society's category for female; they never developed a sense of gender identity and that is part of why they can see sexism where others can't. Others, like me, did internalize gender to a large extent but have found a delightful emancipation from it through learned feminism. Gender non conformity does a great deal to smash the gender binary. Identifying oneself as "non binary" and asking for a change in legal status to defferentiate yourself from others does nothing for anyone but oneself.

Hilary do you have any experience of working with people with MH problems outside of LGBTQ?

Not the the LGB is particulalry relevant, but I do wonder that if your only exerience of complex MH problems is from within the spehere of trans issues, whether you have a strong bias and a limited perspective. People who have much broader MH experience often have different and more complex views than you seem to hold, and can identify cross-overs with other issues and disorders.

Without meaning to be very rude, you do do come acorss rather like you are just regurgitating an advertising pamphlet or powerpoint presentation. I don't find it all reassuring.

And you didn't that I can see, answer the Q re root cause and what if gender issues stem from child abuse.

Trans non-binary people are acting by challenging the binary model of gender, prevalent in western culture, by forming gender identities outside the binary and asking for legal recognition.

If you're non-binary what's there to transition to or from? We're all non-binary. And:

I have no medical qualifications, as for scientific qualifications I have many professional qualifications that could cross over between scientific, engineering and health and wellbeing.

Meaningless piffle. Weasel words. Sorry, Hilary, but you're a fraud.

You presumably joined Mumsnet to lecture women, blind us silly mummies with science and leave us better informed on the trans agenda. I should warn you that education will not help your cause, because the better informed I've become on the topic the stronger my opposition - not to individuals, but to transactivist ideology.

You express yourself in strikingly imprecise terms, which always arouses suspicion from a self-declared expert. Then, when a number of posters ask you questions you should find easy to answer, you either don't respond at all or disingenuously.

You're not the first transadvocate to underestimate the women of Mumsnet. But coming here and bullshitting is so not a good look.

Prawnofthepatriarchy
If you are in possession of a penis or a prostate then women's single sex spaces are not for you

You are not making sense when looking at the reality of what is the current law. You are making political statements based on your own fear and belief, form which you seem to wish to deny to others legitimate access to spaces.

What possible harm can a prostrate on it own do ?

Penis! You do not seem to understand what happens when you take male hormone blockers and female hormones oestrogen. If you did a little research you would realise your fears are based on a myth.

Transwomen have been using single sex spaces for as long as I can remember, and most of them probably self identified as women. I have never seen a UK report of trans women attacking other people in women's single sex spaces, but I have read reports of trans women being attacked and harassed in women's single sex spaces. It is for this reason that many trans women fear using and public single sex spaces.

OldCrone Gender Identity I still don't understand.

Gender identity is all about how you, in your head, think about yourself. It’s about how you internally interpret the chemistry that composes you (e.g., hormone levels). As you know it, do you think you fit better into the societal role of “woman,” or “man,” or do neither ring particularly true for you? That is, are you somewhere in-between the two? Or do you consider your gender to fall outside of the spectrum completely? The answer is your gender identity.

It has been accepted that we form our gender identities around the age of three, and after that age it is incredibly difficult to change them. Formation of identity is affected by hormones and environment just as much as it is by biological sex. Oftentimes, problems arise when someone is assigned a gender based on their sex at birth that doesn’t align with how they come to identify.

Materialist
Hate crimes are any crimes that are targeted at a person because of hostility or prejudice towards that person’s:

disability
race or ethnicity
religion or belief
sexual orientation
transgender identity
This can be committed against a person or property.

A victim does not have to be a member of the group at which the hostility is targeted. In fact, anyone could be a victim of a hate crime.

Hate Crime