Urgent: banning gender identity conversion

[Pratchet]

www.buzzfeed.com/patrickstrudwick/gay-cures-could-be-banned-under-a-new-law-in-the-uk?origin=shp&utm_term=.nw24d18NQk#.keZANE7n3Y
Homosexuality 'conversion cures' must be banned,

They are sneaking in 'gender identity' to the law so that ONLY AFFIRMATION will be sllowed. 'Watch and wait' could be banned as conversion therapy. Kids need our help.

This legislation must be restricted to homosexuality, to allow childrenntime to become happy in their changing bodies. Help.

NewbieSpartacus
You're not dispelling worries Hils you're just repeating yourself. You still haven't explained what you understand to be gender ie what many of us would say is a social construct. You are therefore missing a crucial step in the logic when you say transsexuals are becoming the sex that matches their gender identity. You can't mash your body into becoming your idea of a social construct. Sex isn't changeable. Hope that allays your misgivings.

I Thought I did dispel the worries that I would not answer a question about sex!
When you say I have not explained what I mean by Gender, what use of the term gender are you referring to? if you explain what you mean by you use of the term gender, i will try to explain how gender relates to my use of gender identity.
Also to clarify my statement and remove your spin, I did not say that transsexuals are becoming the sex that matches their gender identity.
What I did say is that transsexuals are the sex that matches their gender identity.

HilaryMGSDC

Have you listened to Dr Polly Carmichael's lecture? There is a link above.

R0wantrees I have previously listened to the Dr Polly Carmichael, lecture, and agree with her that not all gender non-conforming children develop gender incongruence, but a small number do and it is this small group that needs the support to prevent harm.

Only the individual concerned knows the reality of how they see themselves to be, what their true identity is, and the way they wish to be seen. Others can only try to support them.

HilaryMGSDC

If you are in agreement with Dr Polly Carmichael's position, you may wish to challenge some of those so opposed to it.

Dr Carmichael recently gave a speech at the 'Next Steps for Transgender Equality' forum, June 4th.

There was some hostility to her /GIDS approach during her speech as seen on the twitter hashtag #WSPFEvents.

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3268237-Westminster-Social-Policy-forum-today-Next-steps-for-transgender-Equality-WSPFEvents

Hilary

I recognise that I’m banging the drum somewhat, but do you believe humans can change sex?

This question is critical. Because we are being asked to take a course of action based upon believing the answer is yes, when nobody is willing to say the answer is yes.

I find that very troubling.

R0wantrees

The treatment of young people diagnosed with Gender Incongruence is developing as research and practice drive knowledge of treatment models based on outcomes for the individuals concerned.

Up to early puberty for the majority of those children who show gender non-conforming behaviour the watch and wait approach is appropriate, but this is not the case for children who meet the diagnosis of gender incongruence, for them watch an wait can be harmful.

We know that taking no action leads to poor outcomes and harm, which can lead to difficult choices in adulthood, with resulting conflict of gender identity and expectations of society possible transition in later life or isolation, depression and the harmful aspects of poor mental health and wellbeing, self harm and suicidal thoughts. If we wish to avoid the above we need to find the appropriate action which currently is affirmative support to ease transition to the sex/gender that matches the gender identity of the individual concerned.

Practice developed across the world by specialist working with young people who's gender identity is opposite to the gender assigned at birth and who meet the diagnosis of gender incongruence have found that affirmative support through the use of prefered names and pronouns, social transition with the provision of medical intervention in early puberty has proved to give a positive outcome for those involved.

Obviously studies over a lifetime need to be concluded to give a full picture of outcomes, but studies of outcomes for Adults who who meet the diagnosis of gender incongruence have proved satisfactory for most involved.

I believe the above informs the view of the majority of peoples from the transgender/ transsexual community and those who support equality for all with access to the most appropriate treatment being available. We all want to see the best outcomes for everyone, not to limit options available for those who need a specialist treatment care parthway.

Hilary, you say: What I did say is that transsexuals are the sex that matches their gender identity.

No they're not. Human beings cannot change sex. Transsexuals remain their sex at birth, just like everyone else.

Bowlofbabelfish

I clearly answered your question in my post HilaryMGSDC Mon 09-Jul-18 01:46:58
Prawnofthepatriarchy
Hilary, you say: What I did say is that transsexuals are the sex that matches their gender identity.
No they're not. Human beings cannot change sex. Transsexuals remain their sex at birth, just like everyone else.

Sex/Gender is complex and not binary!

Yes that is what I said, and you are agreeing with me that transsexuals remain the sex they were born as. ie the one that matches their gender identity.

Now I realise that this is difficult for some to grasp or understand as it challenges their believe. But as the human race progresses and evolves things can and do change.

I know that change is never easy, if we take a look at another topic which I hope we can agree on as an example of resistance to change.

Tradition belief based on ideology and science have clashed in the past on the proposition of the earth and its position in the universe.

Some people believed the earth was flat, that the earth was the centre of the universe and the sun went round the earth. Even when science proved this belief to be incorrect the majority did not believe them. It took time for the progressive ideas to overcome the traditional belief as it was opposed to their ideology.

We still see examples of this in the world today with religious opposition to homosexuality and transgender rights. I am not saying all religions appose these rights but some do.

I am a believer of factual evidence and progressive change when it comes to treatment of people and the human rights of the individual to live their life.

I’m confused over whose words are who’s.

Do you believe humans can change sex? It’s a yes no answer - it’s not answered in the non bolded text above.

It’s just you appear to be saying that ‘sex is complex and not binary’ and then that you’re all for evidence based science.

Those two positions are contradictory. Do you believe humans can change sex or not?

Tradition belief based on ideology and science have clashed in the past on the proposition of the earth and its position in the universe.

Mariners have known for millennia that the earth isn’t flat, but this is rather rather ironic because the trans ideology (that sex is ‘complex’ and non binary) is a faith based position. not a scientific one. The idea of blue brains and pink brains and ‘born in the wrong body’ has zero basis in science. It’s faith based, it’s basically Cartesian duality with a touch of homophobia. Now if you’re a believer in souls then that’s your right and your business. I’m not, personally but I’m not going to tell someone religious they can’t believe that.

So I’m afraid you’re Pope Urban on this one, and I’m Galileo.

Can humans change sex?

You're no scientist, Hilary. Your position is faith based. It's unsupported by reality.

Bowlofbabelfish
Do you believe humans can change sex? It’s a yes no answer - it’s not answered in the non bolded text above.

The answer was in the none bolded text, I have answered this question 4 times and my answer will stay the same.

In my answer I am using the term SEX to mean biological sex, as determined by sex chromosomes, genes, primary and secondary sex characteristics. I am using the term GENDER IDENTITY to mean a persons internal sense of gender.

Do you believe humans can change sex? Transsesxual people do not change sex, they are the sex matching their gender identity so, No they do not change sex. Sex is complex and not binary Transsexuals or people diagnosed with gender incongruence have a different unconscious development of the mind that aligns their sense of self and their sex with their gender identity, therefore they have not changed sex.

Humans cannot change sex (see clarification above) but they can change some of their secondary sex characteristics, they cannot change their unconscious core identity: sexuality, gender identity, they are not 100% male or female but a combination of both sexes which develop dependent on chromosomal and hormonal influences.

Transsexuals who transition to live as the opposite binary sex to that assigned at birth do not change sex they ‘are the sex’ that matches their gender identity, the causes of this are still unknown or unproven but some research into brain function is pointing to a similarity in transsexual brains that align with brain functions of those with a matching gender identity, similarly the causes of sexual attraction are unknown.

Hilary, do you seriously think you can produce that pile of waffle to an audience of mature women on a fucking parenting site and not have us laugh at you?

Of course sex is a binary. There's no third sex.

Bowl may post some actual science in response to your comment, but I'm just mildly astonished that you expect us to take it seriously.

Prawnofthepatriarchy
You're no scientist, Hilary. Your position is faith based. It's unsupported by reality.

What makes you believe that my position is faith based or that I am a person of faith?

Where in my explanation of my position or belief do I mention faith?

Your position seems to be based on ideology and your belief is holding you back from seeing other points of view. I am not trying to change you view you are perfectly entitled to believe what you believe. I am trying to explain a counter view with evidence and facts.

Sex/Gender and Gender Identity are complex and Yes / No answers do not give a useful response. We see where that leads with Brexit means Brexit.

You need to enhance your response beyond opposition to clarify you own position giving the reader / audience a chance to accept or reject your belief/position. This is how science and understanding evolves, we hold a position based on available facts, Some facts may be questioned in the future and if new facts are found that enhance or disprove the old consensus of understanding a new consensus and understanding will prevail which eventually may become the norm.

Transsesxual people do not change sex, they are the sex matching their gender identity so, No they do not change sex.

But this is contradictory - being transgender means that you associate with the sex you are not, no?
Can you explain this to me? Are you saying that someone who is transsexual has always been the sex they transition to? If so what are they transitioning from? How can they be the sex that matches their ‘gender identity’ if that is different from their sex? Because that is not physically possible. Perhaps I have misunderstood your phrasing? if so then perhaps you could explain this to me.

Sex is complex and not binary

This is incorrect. Sex is binary. If sex is non binary then where are the other gametes? Everyone is Male or female. We know in molecular detail how a foetus develops from conception to become either Male or female.

they are not 100% male or female but a combination of both sexes which develop dependent on chromosomal and hormonal influences.

No. They are Male or female. Surgery and hormones do not change this. The outwards appearance of the corporeal body can be surgically altered, but cross sex hormones, surgery etc do not change the sex of the organism involved.
Many surgical procedures such as hysterectomy are done for medical reasons. Many hormonal treatments are also done for medical reasons - for example hormone blockers in prostate cancer treatment. None of these treatments changes the sex of the person being treated.

I have read that MRI paper, and I think if im up to date the similar papers too. It does not show that there is any such thing as a ‘transgender’ or even a ‘gender’ signal in the brain.

My area of expertise is the genetics and biochemistry of human development, but on this thread you can read a full critique of that MRI paper and several others by working neuroscientists who are experts in that field: www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3196135-Scientists-please-gather-round

The MRI discussions are further down but the take home message is that the transwomens brain’s were more like the male cohort, with some potential signals associated with mental ill heath.

Prawnofthepatriarchy
Hilary, do you seriously think you can produce that pile of waffle to an audience of mature women on a fucking parenting site and not have us laugh at you?

Profanity! signs of losing an argument and not very mature...
Plenty of people who were proven to be on the right side of history with regard to evolution and progress were laughed at.

HilaryMGSDC
Can you support your claim that some research into brain function is pointing to a similarity in transsexual brains that align with brain functions of those with a matching gender identity with some peer-reviewed studies? A press release for a conference presentation is fairly insubstantial evidence for your position.

Can you support your claim that some research into brain function is pointing to a similarity in transsexual brains that align with brain functions of those with a matching gender identity with some peer-reviewed studies?

Breaking this down further, can you provide evidence for gender aligned brain functions in the first place? From what I’ve seen, they don’t seem to exist. There is no functional ‘Male brain’ or ‘female brain.’ You cannot scan a brain and determine what sex it is. You certainly can’t scan one and determine anything about gender

We’ve had a couple of very good threads on the MRI studies actually - thank you to the working neuroscientists who contributed to them

Plenty of people who were proven to be on the right side of history with regard to evolution and progress were laughed at.

I’m sure they were. If they had a solid, reproducible evidence base, they tended to win out.

So far I’m not seeing that in your arguments though. Your position is not evidence based.

HilaryMGSDC
I asked you this earlier this morning, but perhaps you missed it. When you talk about sex and gender are you using the two terms synonymously?

I am using the term SEX as biological sex as determined by sex chromosomes, genes, primary and secondary sex characteristics.

I am using the term GENDER to mean Men, Male or Women, Female or Non-Binary Gender.

This implies that you are using 'gender' to mean the same as 'sex', since men, male, women and female are sex categories.

In which case, when you say:
I am using the term GENDER IDENTITY to mean a persons internal sense of gender.

Do you mean that a person is aware that they are male or female (due to their sex characteristics)? This is what is meant by 'gender identity' in the paper that you posted a link to yesterday, in which they use sex and gender synonymously.

If I have got that wrong, please could you explain in more detail exactly what you mean by 'gender' and 'gender identity'?

Bowlofbabelfish
But this is contradictory - being transgender means that you associate with the sex you are not, no?
Being transgender covers a wide range of gender identities within a binary gender model or outside it as in binary & non-binary identities.

Transsexuals belief their sense of self their sense of sex/gender is the opposite of the sex assigned at birth. This is no less a part of their core identity that sexual attraction is. If you conclude that sexual orientation is innate and not a choice you must consider that our own sense of sex/gender be it the same as assigned sex or different to assigned gender could also be innate. Transsexuals are not delusional believing their body primary and secondary sex characteristics are that of the opposite sex/gender to that assigned at birth. They therefor associate themselves with the sex/gender they are, that being the opposite of the sex assigned at birth.

If our sense of sex and gender is innate it has developed in a typical or atypical way. It is possible that this is an unconscious development caused by chromosomal / hormonal influence on core identity development. As I wrote earlier the jury is still out but research is ongoing so eventually compelling evidence may be found one way or the other.

The fact is their is more we don't know about development of the brain and how it affects our sense of self than we do. Yes there is a lot to prove or disprove regarding causality of gender incongruity, but the fact remains that transgender and transsexual people exist and they exist from birth. Resolving the problems caused by this cannot be a conversion therapy approach. It has been tried and failed

Transsexuals are not delusional believing their body primary and secondary sex characteristics are that of the opposite sex/gender to that assigned at birth. They therefor associate themselves with the sex/gender they are, that being the opposite of the sex assigned at birth.

Is this an argument for the existence of the female penis, Hilary?

I dont believe there IS an innate sense of gender that's universal though. I do t have one, many people here have said they don’t have one. I see it as a faith based position, akin to belief in a soul.

It is not measurable, or observable. So what are we to define it as? I’ve never heard a decent definition of what ‘a female gender identity’ actually IS. I know I’m female. I know this because of the biology of my body. I’m pregnant, I’m not terribly well due to it - that’s how I know I am female. Otherwise, my identity is just me. I have a body, and a personality.

What IS a gender identity? You might say that it’s a feeling that one is, for example a woman, but how can you know how that feels? There’s no definition that’s not a circular argument.

Transsexuals are not delusional believing their body primary and secondary sex characteristics are that of the opposite sex/gender to that assigned at birth.

Now my next sentence is not to be read as perjorative. I mean delusional in the medical sense. A delusional belief is a sincerely held belief that is demonstrably incorrect. You’ve just said that you dont believe people can change sex but now you say that someone who believes they are the opposite sex is literally correct these two statements are contradictory- the second one is demonstrably wrong.

They therefor associate themselves with the sex/gender they are, that being the opposite of the sex assigned at birth.

No one is assigned a sex at birth. Sex is observed at birth.

They may associate with/as (although these are two different things) the sex they are not. However that belief does not alter reality. Belief and objective reality are two different things.

It is possible that this is an unconscious development caused by chromosomal / hormonal influence on core identity development.

Statement on chromosomes: word salad I’m afraid.

There is no evidence for the ‘hormone wash’ theory either.

There is no way to be a woman (or a man) that isn't based in our sexed bodies. There is no magic essence of womanhood that is separate from the physical.

No male can know what it feels like to be female, any more than I can feel like a horse. Because being a woman depends on the body and on our life experiences as women. I don't feel like a woman. I just am one.

Being a woman is not a costume or an identity. It's also not a club that someone can join because they fancy the idea.

From my reading it seems that what many transwomen actually experience is a sense of being a non man. They feel distress about their male bodies, or about masculinity and interpret this as meaning that if they don't fit the male box they're therefore female. This is a misconception.

You're talking about transsexuals, I believe, Hilary. But there is much larger group of transwomen who are entirely sexually motivated. They identify as woman because it arouses them. The misogyny of this group is revolting.

As for wrong side of history? Don't make me laugh. Big advances in science tend to be science based, oddly enough.

I'm guessing you may be American, as Brits rarely use the word "profanity". You clearly aren't aware that Mumsnetters are notoriously sweary. We even have abbreviations for swearing.

One example is ODFOD. I wonder if you can work that one out.