Reality check

[Pratchet]

It's shit but I think we have to be pragmatic. And disclaimer: the below does not refer to all trans people or all transadvocates.

Imagine how many pairs of TRA eyes are trawling every single post on Mumsnet about trans issues. There are the resources, the legal support and the tech experience there to build a civil case, or find the one post that tips over into breaching IPSO and Ofcom guidelines, that can lead to sanction, compensation or worse for MN.

They don't even need eyes. They can build algorithms that trawl mumsnet for them. They want that log of complaints or posts that will enable legal action, criminal action or any other official sanction. There is no lull or respite from this. Mumsnet is the only mass crossover media which enables conversation on this issue which is not trans-agenda driven. It's the only one left that promotes a feminist view. The drive to stop this conversation will not stop, or rest, ever.

And who will they complain to? They will be complaining to people who have had 'trans awareness training' and bodies which have extremely active awareness networks, looking for offensive material. Going back years, through the media, including the BBC and ITV at the highest levels, police, monitoring organisations, government, the civil service, about how vulnerable trans people are, about how oppressed trans people are. What are Mumsnet's chances of coming out the other side and being able to allow this conversation to go on?

We all know this, but it's actually real. It's not theoretical.

Don't do the TRAs' job for them. Please don't jump. Please don't throw yourselves in front of the train. This is David and Goliath, we are amateurs all, new to the field, up against an army of well-prepared professionals. But we can do this.

Here are some links.

www.ofcom.org.uk/__data/assets/pdf_file/0009/112500/dip-statement.pdf
www.ofcom.org.uk/__data/assets/pdf_file/0019/109711/consultation-diversity-inclusion-plan.pdf
www.allabouttrans.org.uk/about/media-interactions/
www.allabouttrans.org.uk/a-meet-up-with-the-independent-press-standards-organisation/
www.out-law.com/en/articles/2018/february/uk-to-review-laws-on-offensive-online-communications/
www.gov.uk/government/news/home-secretary-announces-new-national-online-hate-crime-hub

Upstart it's just an example of the level of access and influence GIRES had as long ago as 2009.

ScarletBegonias

I think engaging with the Twitter campaign to impose moderation on MN by some TRAs did lead to some good. It brought the source of some reports and the nature of complaints onto an open forum.

Somen relevent recent threads:
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3245779-New-Statesman-article-The-demonisation-of-Mumsnet-is-just-the-latest-incarnation-of-witch-hunting

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3241575-Mumsnet-Grass-Account

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3238239-Shon-Faye-hassling-mumsnet

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3227339-TRAs-lobbying-Cow-Gate

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3238869-Hi-Mumsnet-if-you-are-asking-feminist-women-to-consider-whether-Mumsnet-is-for-them-please-be-clear-that-the-space-we-made-here-is-for-all-of-us

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3211247-The-Lib-Dem-LGBT-twitter-feed-is-annoyed-at-Mumsnet

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3227312-All-the-Mumsnet-hate-on-Twitter-Have-we-friendzoned-Indias-penetration

Would the be Non Violent Resistance Training doctorcuntybollocks?

Civil Rights activists had specific training to help them resist retaliating to provocation. We should take a tip from them.

Is there somewhere that runs online courses in this kind of stuff (like the Freedom Programme is for recognising male pattern abuse)? Because I'd actually do that.

Is there somewhere that runs online courses in this kind of stuff (like the Freedom Programme is for recognising male pattern abuse)? Because I'd actually do that.

So would I - it would be beneficial.

With regard to moderating my language...

I'm perfectly happy to moderate my language in the sense that I'm not going to call people names or swear directly at them (never going to stop swearing generally, however. Swearing is cool and I will swear at anyone who says otherwise, ner), or use terms that are commonly understood to be slurs, such as t**y.

I'm not perfectly happy to moderate my language so that my speech is compelled. I will not use terms for people not of my sex that appropriate my sex, for example.

And I'm not perfectly happy to moderate my language so that my meaning is obscured. MN has an important consciousness-raising function for lurkers and for influencers and opinion formers reading. I want what I say to be clear.

Is there a way around all this? Unsure.

We all need to let off steam when being brigaded and goaded. But there are other places to do that.

I may be willing to refrain from saying certain things, but I am not willing to lie.

For non-engagement with some topics and questions, I think of Reni Eddo-Lodge and her, Why I’m No Longer Talking to White People About Race.

Guardian's Long Read discussion

Yes, I won't lie. We don't have to lie and no one can make us lie.

Kate, can I be nosy and ask if on your system it shows if a post has been reported and looked at by hq before (so say I report a post and you decide it doesn't break guidelines, then someone else reports and a different admin decides it does - does the second admin already know that you have looked at it?), or will that fall under TSSDNCOP?

I guess I'm wondering whether there is a benefit for the TRAs in asking many users to file their own single reports (ie if people keep reporting a post that is not clear cut, it becomes more likely that someone will decide it does indeed break TGs) or whether once something has been deemed fine that decision stands unless any contributing factors are noticed?

Discussions about how to deal with goading in more specific ways should happen elsewhere, for obvious reasons, but in general if you know you can't respond without giving the GF exactly what they want walk away, make yourself some tea/coffee/something boozy, and let other people handle it. None of the people trying to push your buttons are worth getting banned, especially given that that's their goal.

Reni Eddo-Lodge is very vocal about saying TERFs are the same as racists. Jus' sayin'.

So the GRA was sneaked in without anyone noticing which ratified lies.
The EA was updated without proper consultation to ratify the phenomena of subjective delusions as 'protected characteristics'.
Then GIRES got the green light and went into overdrive using threatening legal postures to enforce the lies of the GRA and the protected delusions of the EA to every major public body like a poisonous cloud spreading over democracy and choking the human right to recognise reality itself.

We need to push back, roll back and fight against this authoritarian bullying waving its rainbow flags with all our might.

We have no choice.

Apologies just a response to the OP

We need massive civil disobedience not tip-toeing around frightened of all the potential litigation that authoritarians are threatening.

We need to speak and say the fucking unsayable.

If enough of us do it, they can't bloody sue us all.

They can deny us this voice

Look how much dosh JJ quickly got in her legal crowdfunder.

Imagine if MN started a crowdfunder for legal fees to protect freedom of speech how many people would chip in and what that would do for MNs loyalty and credibility. It would make the fuckers back the fuck down because they wouldn't want to draw attention the issue. It would only lead to more people to standing up for democracy and free speech.

MN is a profitable website with a high profile. I resent womens resources being used when its not necessary.

ChickenMe "I doubt very much that the actual police are keeping an eye on things. That is scaremongering"

I don't think it's a big reach to think it possible that police may be monitoring internet activity amongst groups connected with activism where there have already been prosecutions for assault, accusations of doxxing, and threats of devices at meetings. I think it would be remiss of them not to be keeping an eye on both sides of this sort of situation, to help keep everyone safe.

Let's not forget also that police in the U.K. have recent form for infiltration of activist groups, and that they have not always behaved correctly when doing so. Huge damage has been dealt out to women and children in activist circles by undercover police activity. Would it not be rather niaive to dismiss that possibility as scaremongering?

Besides all of that, even if there no monitoring etc, if you get caught up in something, or had an accusation levelled at you, and someone says to police that they believe you have a record of hostility and prejudice towards transgender people, then it will be flagged as possible hate crime, and your posts would be scrutinised.

Re 'vexatious reporting' - from the guidelines:
'We’ll also be taking a dim view of the continual and persistent reporting of posts that don’t break our guidelines, as each of these need to be investigated, which is a huge waste of the mod team's time and energy. Anyone who repeatedly reports similar types of posts that aren’t worthy of deletion – ie simply to be vexatious – will be suspended.'

How does this work in the case of external reporters who can't be suspended? If reports are accepted from non members then there's nothing to prevent a vexatious reporter from carrying on. Maybe this isn't happening in practice at the moment but it seems like simply requiring registration gives MNHQ the necessary control to prevent abuse. Someone who registers merely for the purpose of 'shadow moderating' and doesn't post would only be liable to be banned if they were vexatious reporters. I really can't see why anyone would not see this as an entirely fair and proportional position, unless they didn't want MNHQ to be fully in control of their own site.

Now, while I'm sure WhereDoWeBeginToCovetClarice is in good faith, nonetheless it's worth giving a heads up that these are her/his first posts on MN. It is also interesting that his/her advice appears on a thread where we are discussing how to stay within talk guidelines in order to have important discussions, and that his/her advice seems to be egging us on to do precisely the opposite.

Posters may wish to note (in totally general terms, not aimed at any one poster in particular) that the suspicion has already been raised, both on this thread and on other threads, that there may be agents provocateurs on here posing as GC posters to try to encourage others to post more inflammatory things than they would normally do, in order to supply screen grabs to be taken out of context. I'm sure everyone will want to be aware of this possibility and post accordingly.

"I don't think it's a big reach to think it possible that police may be monitoring internet activity amongst groups connected with activism where there have already been prosecutions for assault, accusations of doxxing, and threats of devices at meetings. I think it would be remiss of them not to be keeping an eye on both sides of this sort of situation, to help keep everyone safe."

It is also very important to remember that all the activities listed above have been carried out by a certain extremist sub-faction within the TRA group, rather than by GC feminists. There have been no cases of assault or threats of devices from GC feminists.

Beware the Trumpian false equivalence of "both sides are as bad as each other" used in the aftermath of Charlottesville.

You are all right in one respect.
As things stand at the moment, I and many other people want to see MN shut down.
We all know that it's only a game to you, and that sooner or later you will get bored a d go and find some other minority to bully. But until then, you are trashing real people's real lives -- not just trans people and their games and friends, but the lives of non-trans women and girls who are genuinely frightened because they have been duped into believing your propaganda.
One way or another, it has to stop. If you won't stop it voluntarily, and MN won't do anything to stop it, then we will have to turn to the government, and persuade them to give us some adequate legal protections.