Reality check

[Pratchet]

It's shit but I think we have to be pragmatic. And disclaimer: the below does not refer to all trans people or all transadvocates.

Imagine how many pairs of TRA eyes are trawling every single post on Mumsnet about trans issues. There are the resources, the legal support and the tech experience there to build a civil case, or find the one post that tips over into breaching IPSO and Ofcom guidelines, that can lead to sanction, compensation or worse for MN.

They don't even need eyes. They can build algorithms that trawl mumsnet for them. They want that log of complaints or posts that will enable legal action, criminal action or any other official sanction. There is no lull or respite from this. Mumsnet is the only mass crossover media which enables conversation on this issue which is not trans-agenda driven. It's the only one left that promotes a feminist view. The drive to stop this conversation will not stop, or rest, ever.

And who will they complain to? They will be complaining to people who have had 'trans awareness training' and bodies which have extremely active awareness networks, looking for offensive material. Going back years, through the media, including the BBC and ITV at the highest levels, police, monitoring organisations, government, the civil service, about how vulnerable trans people are, about how oppressed trans people are. What are Mumsnet's chances of coming out the other side and being able to allow this conversation to go on?

We all know this, but it's actually real. It's not theoretical.

Don't do the TRAs' job for them. Please don't jump. Please don't throw yourselves in front of the train. This is David and Goliath, we are amateurs all, new to the field, up against an army of well-prepared professionals. But we can do this.

Here are some links.

www.ofcom.org.uk/__data/assets/pdf_file/0009/112500/dip-statement.pdf
www.ofcom.org.uk/__data/assets/pdf_file/0019/109711/consultation-diversity-inclusion-plan.pdf
www.allabouttrans.org.uk/about/media-interactions/
www.allabouttrans.org.uk/a-meet-up-with-the-independent-press-standards-organisation/
www.out-law.com/en/articles/2018/february/uk-to-review-laws-on-offensive-online-communications/
www.gov.uk/government/news/home-secretary-announces-new-national-online-hate-crime-hub

Good posts Fermats

I think you may be right FermatsTheorem. They are suggesting the opposite of the intentions of the OP.

FFS - Under His Eye!

For "games and friends" in my previous post, read "families and friends".
Dunno what happened there!

if you know you can't respond without giving the GF exactly what they want walk away, make yourself some tea/coffee/something boozy, and let other people handle it. None of the people trying to push your buttons are worth getting banned, especially given that that's their goal.

Good to remember AAK

I don't know of any feminists who are bullies or who went on to trans forums to try to shut them down and threaten them with police and government action. I would have thought that would be illegal tbh.

Please, no-one report damn's post. I want everyone to be able to see that clearly stated aim, in black and white.

Women talking about women's rights - too dangerous. Must be shut down, via government intervention if necessary. Even if that means also taking down a whole support network for millions of women, offering support in pregnancy, childbirth, breastfeeding, child-raising and juggling all that with a career.

I would like to spread some live here for all our feminists friends who feel their blood pressure rising. I love you all. You are amazing. ❤️❤️❤️

Some love. That would be love. And feminist friends. No one is reporting.

For you too Pratchet

I'm really glad I learned about the concept of DARVO on here recently.

if you get caught up in something, or had an accusation levelled at you, and someone says to police that they believe you have a record of hostility and prejudice towards transgender people, then it will be flagged as possible hate crime, and your posts would be scrutinised.

A few points, because this does sound a tad threatening to me, that my posts could be scrutinised by police. And I’m sure you didn’t mean that in any personal way at anyone here at all but I’m going to use that statement as an illustration of the techniques used by people who perhaps do mean it. I speak in generalities now, it’s a generic ‘you.’

A crime needs to be committed before it can be a hate crime. I have committed no crime, nor do I intend to do so - I am a law abiding, peaceful, non violent lefty hippy.

Having an opinion on gender critical matters is not hateful
Expressing an opinion on gender critical matters is not hateful
Peaceful expression of political opinion is not unlawful
There are no laws against blasphemy

If they believe you have a record of hostility and hate - now hang on there just a moment because I see this technique a LOT. It’s a statement placed in a post that assumes a negative and builds the rest of the post on this and this does the following - again I speak in generalities

1. It sets the tone as factual when it’s not. It’s a statement designed to set the tone as ‘x has a record of hate and hostility.*
2. It forces JADE (justify apologise defend or explain behaviour.)
3. It derails.

So I read that, and now what am I about to say, as Ms. Jo Average? I’m now at pains to post some sort of justification that I’m not engaging in any kind of hatred at all. I’m quite indignant about it! I go to great lengths to prove I am not! So now my energy is wasted on a rebuttal of a point I shouldn’t have be making because speaking about gender critical matters is not hateful. Nor is concern for safeguarding of children. Nothing I’ve said is hateful.

So I’m on the back foot, defending myself as women so often do, the thread is derailed and the default position is now that we are all so hateful that we need to think about the police combing through our posts.

do you see what is happening here? these are control techniques.

It’s not a nice thought is it?

• create false statement that sets a position
• detail and force apology/justification
• create implicit threat involving power structure/law enforcement.

materialist "I think any woman who has been in or near a violent relationship with a man can read between the lines, but thanks for the warning!"

Clearly I'm missing something here. Can you explain what you're getting at materialist?

Fermats to clarify, I wasn't levelling any of those things at GC activists - sorry if it came over that way. My point is that it's all too easy for anyone involved to point a finger, make an accusation and throw in an allegation of hostility and prejudice towards transgender people.

I don't have any dealings with TRAs but from the way they are described here in terms of power, resources and strategies, GC posters who are involved in activism should maybe watch their words on that front, not just because mnhq would rather they stayed inside the guidelines.

Spot on as always, Bowl. And yes, my mind immediately leapt to DARVO, Stilettos.

Ah, that's a relief, Super.

Great post. We are not committing a crime by articulating biological truths. 💪🏻💪🏻💪🏻 Nolite. No pasaran.

Haven't rtft but I think one is of the problems we face is that GC feminists are seen as extremist. If most people read emotive posts about how we want to bully trans people with our propaganda and how we are being constantly deleted on MN and having to leave the forum because our transphobia isn't tolerated, it looks pretty bad. Anyone who takes the time to read the guidelines and see how stringent they are, or read the threads and see how they focus on women and girls and not on bullying people will see that's rubbish, but the vast majority of people won't- they'll just think that if we're breaching guidelines on transphobia we must be pretty bad.

I honestly don't know what we can do about this and it frightens me. Sometimes people are on the wrong side of history because they do fucked up things but sometimes it's because history tells a particular story, and the injustices involved in that can take decades or centuries to become clear to the general public.

I was talking to Bowl there. HREAT POST BOWL

I don't understand.

Why is it that the reasoned debate, grounded in biological fact, that happens here on FWR could lead to legal trouble - but sites like Kiwi Farms, 4chan, and some sections of Reddit where there is blatant, offensive transphobia, including actual slurs, are left alone?

Seriously, why us? Is there any answer other than because we're women?

I think you are right Pratchet . It's a PITA to have to think and rethink before we post, but I know how important it is. And not only to consider the tone and content of a post, but of individual parts of a post as snippets are often reproduced out of context to suit a particular agenda.

As others have said too (and I hate to sound like the thread police!) but we need to be aware that some people may not be posting in good faith, and some people may be posting in order to derail a thread, and goad posters into making unwise posts. It may be sensible to ignore these posters, I knoe I have a tendency to jump in and correct things which are incorrect or untrue, but once everyone does that the thread goes into a death spiral.

Sometimes posters need to be ignored and not spoken to directly, and their points challenged indirectly in a positive way.

And leave these posts to stand, women can see these tactics.

We are not extremists : we hold the mainstream 'view' which isn't really a 'view', it's just knowledge.

What we don't support is the current orthodoxy and its powerful backers 🙂

Super
What would "hostility and prejudice" look like?
The police have also a duty to comply with the Human Rights Act and that includes freedom of speech, thought etc If a poster isn't breaking the law, what have they to fear? I refuse to live as if we are in communist Russia.
A poster could say eg they don't agree with homosexuality-heck I could stand outside in the street with a placard stating that-and not break the law. Insulting is gone from Sec 5 POA and it's not a crime to be offended.
And further to that it would rely on MN releasing your details to the police to prove that the poster was you.
The assault was perpetrated against feminists as was the bomb threat so why the talk of "both sides"?
Have an eye on the law yes but don't let things put you off speaking

More lovebombing for MN feminists

Can ya feel it

Is there any answer other than because we're women?

In reality I think MN is actually quite small, and therefore TRAs sense it is possible to shut it down.

Pratchet
Yes, I won't lie. We don't have to lie and no one can make us lie.
So don't. Just stop doing it.
Easy. Problem solved.