Reality check

[Pratchet]

It's shit but I think we have to be pragmatic. And disclaimer: the below does not refer to all trans people or all transadvocates.

Imagine how many pairs of TRA eyes are trawling every single post on Mumsnet about trans issues. There are the resources, the legal support and the tech experience there to build a civil case, or find the one post that tips over into breaching IPSO and Ofcom guidelines, that can lead to sanction, compensation or worse for MN.

They don't even need eyes. They can build algorithms that trawl mumsnet for them. They want that log of complaints or posts that will enable legal action, criminal action or any other official sanction. There is no lull or respite from this. Mumsnet is the only mass crossover media which enables conversation on this issue which is not trans-agenda driven. It's the only one left that promotes a feminist view. The drive to stop this conversation will not stop, or rest, ever.

And who will they complain to? They will be complaining to people who have had 'trans awareness training' and bodies which have extremely active awareness networks, looking for offensive material. Going back years, through the media, including the BBC and ITV at the highest levels, police, monitoring organisations, government, the civil service, about how vulnerable trans people are, about how oppressed trans people are. What are Mumsnet's chances of coming out the other side and being able to allow this conversation to go on?

We all know this, but it's actually real. It's not theoretical.

Don't do the TRAs' job for them. Please don't jump. Please don't throw yourselves in front of the train. This is David and Goliath, we are amateurs all, new to the field, up against an army of well-prepared professionals. But we can do this.

Here are some links.

www.ofcom.org.uk/__data/assets/pdf_file/0009/112500/dip-statement.pdf
www.ofcom.org.uk/__data/assets/pdf_file/0019/109711/consultation-diversity-inclusion-plan.pdf
www.allabouttrans.org.uk/about/media-interactions/
www.allabouttrans.org.uk/a-meet-up-with-the-independent-press-standards-organisation/
www.out-law.com/en/articles/2018/february/uk-to-review-laws-on-offensive-online-communications/
www.gov.uk/government/news/home-secretary-announces-new-national-online-hate-crime-hub

Bespin "All day long but some posters really just seem to want to drive the train off the tracks at any given point. To such an extent that even I wonder if there MRA's pretending to be gender critical"

I've been wondering that too. Agent Provocateurs in the GC ranks. It wouldn't surprise me.

It's also occurred to me that it's possible the actual police may be keeping an active eye on things. If certain GC posters were to inadvertently or otherwise get caught up in criminal proceedings, say at a talk or demo, or an accusation of doxxing, it would be all too easy for someone to assert that there wasn't an element of hostility and prejudice towards transgender people in their actions, evidenced by their posts here, including deleted ones that mnhq would have to disclose, meaning they are opened up to the hate crime flagging process.

Please note... not a threat! Just something I was thinking about over the past few days. Police infiltration is not impossible, and even without that, posts here could be used to build a case for a hate crime element to anything a poster got caught up in.

Was, not wasn't

We all can imagine what's happened at MNHQ. Meetings of mods, Justine taking personal charge, senior mods put on FWR, debriefs and I bet, advice that if in doubt, and there's no one senior to check with, take it down or put on hold, don't take the risk. 'Let's try to ride this out' I can hear it now.

Ok dandy.

Pratchet

I think Kate already gave the MNHQ reason for allowing non-members to report. The rationale seems to be that when a post which doesn't comply with the rules comes to their attention, they take it down, and who brought it to their attention isn't relevant.

That makes a kind of sense but I don't think it's the best way to look at this. I see MN more as a club, and think it's for club members to decide whether or not they should flag up something which appears to break the rules. It isn't really the business of non-members.

Either way, it certainly didn't make sense for MNHQ to go on Twitter, as they did a while ago, and in effect invite the whole world to come to MN and report anything they didn't like the look of. That really was madness.

Thanks Scarlet.
The bottom line is that biology is not bigotry and it would good for posters to remember that.

Public reporting on this issue specifically is dangerous because some activists will report posts that are true and not bigoted in order to make them unsayable. Mass reporting has already achieved this elsewhere.

Yes good point scarlett

Do new posters know that anyone can report?

i certainly didnt know that when i signed up

I doubt very much that the actual police are keeping an eye on things. That is scaremongering

If someone commits an offence then that's one thing but the police are busy they do not trawl MN looking for evidence of potential thought crimes

Pratchet that is very true biology is not bigotry. Its the bigotry That is.

Can I just address non members reporting posts, as this is a open forum. And it takes as long to join mums net as report a post then this seems a non issue unless you are talking about people who. Have already been banned by mumsnet then I can see a problem.

Also people posting threads that are designed to get a responce as is often stated you not need to respond you are all grown ups every post or thread does not need a responce as people say if no one responds then the thread sinks. If you do respond then it's your responsibility not the threads how you respond

Pratchet - posts that are true and not bigoted wouldn't break TGs so we'd leave them up. Vexatious reporting is also specifically mentioned in our new guidelines over here.

Do MN count as a publisher or a platform in terms of content?

Thanks Kate.

I appreciate this thread. Nice to wake up to calm reason. Is this situation bloody ridiculous? Of course it is. That's why I have every sympathy with the women who have felt they couldn't stay because it was hugely distressing to be forced to comply with such strange language diktats.

But for those of us strong enough to stay, it is fairly imperative to play the game because the important thing is to keep this knowledge out there, to keep women aware that they are always always allowed to say no.
I was lonely and frightened until someone on Twitter mentioned the discussion on MN, so I came and had a look, and suddenly, I wasn't alone - there was a whole load of women pointing out that something sinister was going on, and more than sounding the alarm, they equipped me with the language I needed to puncture to growing lie bubbles around me.

My internet presence is fairly varied, and before I registered here, I attempted to make the GC case in other places too - and that dissemination of argument online and in real life is what will result from keeping this board active in a positive way.

Take a tip from the Christian church, if you will. In many places in the world, we are outlawed and banned. Do we stop? Of course not, we adjust our language and practice so that we can continue to get the word out. If you believe you are standing for the truth, you don't let the perceived gains by the liars hold you down.

Pratchet

I can't read the link in the OP, it's too small. Can you summarise what it says.

Will keep pushing that Gender Critical boulder up the hill, every day, so that lurkers can see

Basically it says 'we have lots of funding and everyone who matters has to listen to us'.

If only Women's Aid, Refuge and Rape Crisis had that kind of funding and clout.

That makes sense!

I will moderate my language - I think I’m fairly restrained in my use of it anyway (tad sarcastic at times but that’s no crime) because I feel MN is important. I don’t want to have to moderate my language - there are a few things I’d like to say that I know would be against the rules so I won’t say them here.

For me it’s a case of finding a way of saying what I want to say in a way that can’t be used against MN. I value this space - I honestly believe MN has changed my life for the better in some ways. It was here I got parenting support when I was desperately sleep deprived with my first. It was here I had my eyes opened to a more rad fem perspective.

I am ANGRY that you’re being targeted like this. I’m sure there’s a lot of behind the scenes pressure and I don’t envy you finding a way through it. Please don’t capitulate to these people - you’re a beacon of critical thought, humour, support and feminism and we value that.

Yes to everything Bowl's just said.

Civil Rights activists had specific training to help them resist retaliating to provocation. We should take a tip from them.

Hear hear. Bowl I think platform publisher thing is down to the level of curation. They're looking for any excuse for any legal or regulatory case though.