Reality check

[Pratchet]

It's shit but I think we have to be pragmatic. And disclaimer: the below does not refer to all trans people or all transadvocates.

Imagine how many pairs of TRA eyes are trawling every single post on Mumsnet about trans issues. There are the resources, the legal support and the tech experience there to build a civil case, or find the one post that tips over into breaching IPSO and Ofcom guidelines, that can lead to sanction, compensation or worse for MN.

They don't even need eyes. They can build algorithms that trawl mumsnet for them. They want that log of complaints or posts that will enable legal action, criminal action or any other official sanction. There is no lull or respite from this. Mumsnet is the only mass crossover media which enables conversation on this issue which is not trans-agenda driven. It's the only one left that promotes a feminist view. The drive to stop this conversation will not stop, or rest, ever.

And who will they complain to? They will be complaining to people who have had 'trans awareness training' and bodies which have extremely active awareness networks, looking for offensive material. Going back years, through the media, including the BBC and ITV at the highest levels, police, monitoring organisations, government, the civil service, about how vulnerable trans people are, about how oppressed trans people are. What are Mumsnet's chances of coming out the other side and being able to allow this conversation to go on?

We all know this, but it's actually real. It's not theoretical.

Don't do the TRAs' job for them. Please don't jump. Please don't throw yourselves in front of the train. This is David and Goliath, we are amateurs all, new to the field, up against an army of well-prepared professionals. But we can do this.

Here are some links.

www.ofcom.org.uk/__data/assets/pdf_file/0009/112500/dip-statement.pdf
www.ofcom.org.uk/__data/assets/pdf_file/0019/109711/consultation-diversity-inclusion-plan.pdf
www.allabouttrans.org.uk/about/media-interactions/
www.allabouttrans.org.uk/a-meet-up-with-the-independent-press-standards-organisation/
www.out-law.com/en/articles/2018/february/uk-to-review-laws-on-offensive-online-communications/
www.gov.uk/government/news/home-secretary-announces-new-national-online-hate-crime-hub

One way or another, it has to stop. If you won't stop it voluntarily, and MN won't do anything to stop it, then we will have to turn to the government, and persuade them to give us some adequate legal protections.

What has to stop? Peaceful discussion on a forum? What exactly are you wanting to stop. Please be specific, rather than ‘all this hatred’ sort of an answer. What exactly are the real life things you want to stop?

People disagreeing with you isn’t hatred.

Adequate legal protections? Gender reassignment is listed as a protected characteristic under the EA, as is for example disability, religious belief etc.
Can you please clarify what extra protections you feel are needed that are on top of those given to the other protected groups?

How is discussion on MN directly ‘trashing lives’? I will remind you that to date:

No feminist has punched a transwoman to the floor
No feminist has attacked a transwoman physically
No feminist has threatened a meeting of transpeople with a bomb
No feminist has masked up and prevented transpeople from meeting or speaking

I and many other people want to see MN shut down.

That sounds to me like the view of a very selfish and self-centred person.

That is the suggestion of someone who does not care how much good a site does, if it doesn't centre them.

I assume you aren't serious.

Fermats I have NC I am not an agent provocateur.

I resent the chilling effect of this OP.

Sex is binary, immutable and defined by reproductive role.

Bowl I was paraphrasing this bit from the cps "Any criminal offence which is perceived by the victim or any other person, to be motivated by hostility or prejudice..." and I didn't use the word hate in the context you ascribe to my post.

I do get where you're coming from, but there's no threat intended at all. I've also been quite clear that to be prosecuted you'd have to have committed a crime. What worries me for the posters here is that's they are leaving themselves vulnerable to hate crime flagging should they in any way get tangled up in a criminal matter, either by something they did or attended or were involved in, or by malicious allegations against them.

You can believe me or not, but I'm female, have been subject to male control and violence, and actually give a shit about women and children. That doesn't stop me having a brain in my head to read the COS guidance on hate crime flagging and see a vulnerability for GC posters whose comments could be perceived as hostile or prejudiced.

One way or another, it has to stop. If you won't stop it voluntarily, and MN won't do anything to stop it, then we will have to turn to the government, and persuade them to give us some adequate legal protections.

"Legal protections"-for what? For being disagreed with?!

This is all wishful thinking-you think you're some sort of secret police. Jog on.

Women, don't be afraid or intimidated by this

Women, don't be afraid or intimidated by this

I agree.

I think we should remember that this latest little outburst of rage, DARVO and unfounded accusations has been brought on by calmly saying we will continue to talk about biological fact and present political arguments in a polite, reasoned way. Not surprisingly, this insistence is deeply threatening if your biggest weapon is #nodebate because none of your arguments stack up. The rage is a sign that we're on to a winner with the strategy of politely talking about things.

"Nevertheless, she persisted."

ChickenMe "what would hostility and prejudice look like?"

Good question. I wondered that too. Here what the CPS says:

"There is no legal definition of hostility so we use the everyday understanding of the word which includes ill-will, spite, contempt, prejudice, unfriendliness, antagonism, resentment and dislike."

www.cps.gov.uk/hate-crime

Again, to be crystal clear, I did not and do not say that GC feminists have engaged in criminal acts.

I apologise for missing the tone of the thread. It is important to have calm reasoned discussion minus swearing etc.

The TGLWGH phase really got on my tits nerves and I thought this might be another incarnation of that.

Like having an uptight grandparent at dinner tutting until you conform to a robotic performance of good manners while dying on the inside.

I don't do 'good' manners very well.

I apologise for missing the tone of the thread. It is important to have calm reasoned discussion minus swearing etc.

The TGLWGH phase really got on my tits nerves and I thought this might be another incarnation of that.

Like having an uptight grandparent at dinner tutting until you conform to a robotic performance of good manners while dying on the inside.

I don't do 'good' manners very well.

ill-will, spite, contempt, prejudice, unfriendliness, antagonism, resentment and dislike."

None of which apply to a poster raising concerns over weakening of child safeguarding protections. Or to one stating that off label prescription/uncontrolled buying of puberty blockers over the web is worrying.

Feminists are not only NOT the ones committing violent acts here, they’re also not framing the debate in terms of hatred.

There is no incitement to hatred from the GC feminist side. There’s plenty of genuine hatred on other web platforms - that’s one reason I don’t hang out there much because I want no truck with any of that stuff.

Nobody posting here in good faith should be intimidated by thoughts of the police monitoring them.

As for the admission that some people want MN shut down and will lobby the government for it, well thanks for confirming what we knew. I still have to ask WHY such people are threatened by MN and are not going after Kiwi/reddit/etc..?

Oh no apology needed. I know it looks like appeasement. It's not. To my last breath.

do you see what is happening here? these are control techniques

Indeed they are. Here is an illustration. Everyone should study it and learn to recognise it in action.

As things stand at the moment, I and many other people want to see MN shut down. We all know that it's only a game to you, and that sooner or later you will get bored and go and find some other minority to bully. But until then, you are trashing real people's real lives -- not just trans people and their families and friends, but the lives of non-trans women and girls who are genuinely frightened because they have been duped into believing your propaganda.

This thread is so important. Thank you Pratchet

And this response I've bolded is so important too.

For lurkers and people reading this in the future, I want to say that if you sat down in front of me, I would happily tell you I am a gender critical feminist. I would say that I value the safety of women and girls and that I am posting a lot on MN about the trans issue solely because of this.

I actually value the safety of trans people too - I want society to be kind and fair generally. I abhor violence. I've never seen any gc feminist say they want to eradicate trans people or that they wish them harm. In fact, I've seen it repeatedly written that gc feminists want everyone to go about their lives as they wish to - wear what you want, do what you as long as it's doing no harm. Why would we think differently?

I believe some trans people suffer crippling gender dysphoria and deserve help. But regardless of that, I believe that you cannot identify into an oppressed class, that sex is an immutable fact and that there are various times that sex segregation matters. Society as it is currently structured means that women as a class experience horrifying levels of violence. To say sex segregation matters has nothing to do with being mean to trans people or being bigoted or again, wanting to eradicate them.

I am not bullying anyone. This isn't a game - this is deadly serious. I am a kind, sensitive, loving individual who is working to try to ensure that society protects the most vulnerable. The most vulnerable in my eyes are females, otherwise there wouldn't be such stratospheric levels of fgm, child marriage, sexual assault in the world, to name just a few issues. One person harmed by men being able to call themselves women is one person too many.

Gendercritter hear hear!

No hate crime without an actual crime tho so find a criminal offence first then start scaring people.
I've seen far more dubious stuff on Twitter are the police scouring Twitter? No, they prob wish it and FB would close down as they have enough rubbish to deal with and def don't go looking for it

Bowl "None of which apply to a poster raising concerns over weakening of child safeguarding protections. Or to one stating that off label prescription/uncontrolled buying of puberty blockers over the web is worrying. "

No disagreement from me there.

I'm not sure it's helpful to conflate my posts on this thread with coercive control. It's hard enough to get people in general to understand what it is and recognise it without muddying the waters with accusations to some random on the net who points out a possible vulnerability.

Sheesh, I was actually trying to help, but you have got me so thoroughly boxed and labelled that it doesn't matter what I post, you'll go on the attack. Maybe it's marginally better than being ignored.

It wasn't even me that raised the issue of infiltrations or posts being screen capped to "make you look bad". You all seem very well aware that there are others out to paint you as haters. I'm just trying to get the point across that some posts here would be on dodgy ground if associated, rightly or wrongly, with a criminal accusation.

Lumping my post in with the seriousness of domestic abuse seems pretty extreme. By all means, argue the points if you disagree that this is a thing that could happen, but labelling me as abusive in order to dismiss it is just not on.

E.g. You attend an event, there's a scuffle on the stairs, someone gets shoved and gets a sprained ankle, and points the finger at you, and throws in an allegation of hostility and prejudice towards trans people with your mn posting as evedince. You could find yourself with devices being looked at, email accounts checked into etc etc.

And by the way, I have absolutely nothing to do with Damn and their shutdown mn shit.

Good point Chicken

And obviously if you've done nothing wrong then it should all work out ok even in that scenario, but I imagine it would be pretty unpleasant to have to fight your corner while it's all being picked over. Massively stressful, and not a situation I'd want to be in. God knows plenty of people are daft enough to think there's no smoke without fire etc etc.

How would they know who you are on MN though?
If women from here are going to an event let's say WPUK, that is an event about women's rights - it's not an anti-trans event. It's just women talking. So why would the police be interested-they are not interested face it. The police have a duty to protect free speech and deal with those who seek to curtail it
If there's an incident let people allege what they may. So what? You can't live life like that.
I feel like you're trying to scare people into a) not having an opinion and b) not going to an event

I am a GC feminist

I am really sorry to be thick, but not sure what point is being made here? Is it "don't leave MN" or something? What is the "reality check" - do you mean don't be scared?

Just be aware of the size and skill of the army ranged against us, and prepare to dig in

You attend an event, there's a scuffle on the stairs, someone gets shoved and gets a sprained ankle, and points the finger at you, and throws in an allegation of hostility and prejudice towards trans people with your mn posting as evedince. You could find yourself with devices being looked at, email accounts checked into etc etc.

Interesting scenario. Like the masked people preventing women from assembling at the women’s rights meeting? Good job no one was physically hurt by them. Very intimidating though. Are our hypothetical coppers checking their tweeting history as well? Good job also that it was filmed.

How would that person know I was on MN? How would they know who I was on MN? Unless they’d targeted or hacked me somehow and in that case it’s them who is getting prosecuted under various laws.

The police are very welcome (with appropriate warrants or whatever one needs) to look at my posting history, email accounts and social media / Facebook etc. They will find absolutely nothing to concern them. It’ll bore them shitless but they’re welcome.

I will not be intimidated by such scenarios, and neither should any poster posting in good faith on here.