Reality check

[Pratchet]

It's shit but I think we have to be pragmatic. And disclaimer: the below does not refer to all trans people or all transadvocates.

Imagine how many pairs of TRA eyes are trawling every single post on Mumsnet about trans issues. There are the resources, the legal support and the tech experience there to build a civil case, or find the one post that tips over into breaching IPSO and Ofcom guidelines, that can lead to sanction, compensation or worse for MN.

They don't even need eyes. They can build algorithms that trawl mumsnet for them. They want that log of complaints or posts that will enable legal action, criminal action or any other official sanction. There is no lull or respite from this. Mumsnet is the only mass crossover media which enables conversation on this issue which is not trans-agenda driven. It's the only one left that promotes a feminist view. The drive to stop this conversation will not stop, or rest, ever.

And who will they complain to? They will be complaining to people who have had 'trans awareness training' and bodies which have extremely active awareness networks, looking for offensive material. Going back years, through the media, including the BBC and ITV at the highest levels, police, monitoring organisations, government, the civil service, about how vulnerable trans people are, about how oppressed trans people are. What are Mumsnet's chances of coming out the other side and being able to allow this conversation to go on?

We all know this, but it's actually real. It's not theoretical.

Don't do the TRAs' job for them. Please don't jump. Please don't throw yourselves in front of the train. This is David and Goliath, we are amateurs all, new to the field, up against an army of well-prepared professionals. But we can do this.

Here are some links.

www.ofcom.org.uk/__data/assets/pdf_file/0009/112500/dip-statement.pdf
www.ofcom.org.uk/__data/assets/pdf_file/0019/109711/consultation-diversity-inclusion-plan.pdf
www.allabouttrans.org.uk/about/media-interactions/
www.allabouttrans.org.uk/a-meet-up-with-the-independent-press-standards-organisation/
www.out-law.com/en/articles/2018/february/uk-to-review-laws-on-offensive-online-communications/
www.gov.uk/government/news/home-secretary-announces-new-national-online-hate-crime-hub

We are being moderated by trans extremists, in effect. All MN are doing is keeping the train on the track. There's no point in suicide. They want us to go down in a blaze of glory. No one will care. Might make one hit in the Daily Mail. It's not worth it.

GC feminists here and elsewhere are in danger of being perceived to be extremists

No we don't look anything like extremists. I'm not saying that at all. That's the opposite of what I said.

We don't need to look conciliatory or inclusive. We need to not produce material that could be used to pursue legal or regulatory sanction.

Ours is not the view of a few extremists. Ours is not even a view, it's knowledge. The knowledge that sex is binary, based on reproductive role and immutable. We don't need to 'move it mainstream'. It is mainstream. But people with power do not want us to articulate that knowledge and they've had the ability to stop other massive media organisations doing so.

We have to keep it sayable.

The general public knows that sex is based on reproductive role and is unchangeable. Transactivists are trying to prevent them from finding out that the plan is to make that completely unsayable.

Mn is the only forum I know of that takes reports from nonmembers.

Is kiwi being targeted in the same way? Fm? No. So why are they so scared of us discussing reality and how to defend ourselves?

Just because of the targeting that means we could lose it altogether.

I agree with some of the points made by Pratchet I am happy to debate topics with you all. All day long but some posters really just seem to want to drive the train off the tracks at any given point. To such an extent that even I wonder if there MRA's pretending to be gender critical or even TRA's I don't beleive in the use of such tactics as that is not how we campaigned for our existing rights but by patently stating our case and demonstration that the points raised however Truely held had no basis or evidence to support them.

I truly do not want anyone to leave but some people seem to think that by being banded on here they are making a point they are not they are just silancing themselves. I have never understood the tactic of getting arrested at a demon to make a point it only really hurts you and shows them in a better light

I know 'fuck you' has always worked in the past. Maybe it will work again, maybe I'm wrong. But I know of a TRA who built an algorithm like I'm describing. Just a regular person. That's just one. There are activists out there looking at everything with a legal eye and just waiting for their chance. Not even waiting - goading, trying to provoke it.

Bespin: I don't care what you think to be honest.

Speaking of goading, that thread by Alexa last night, the one that people were responding to seriously? Everyone needs to get better at spotting bridge dwellers that obvious, because harvesting screenshots is absolutely one of the goals.

Not a problem Pratchet as long as you respect my right to post what I think then Im good. Right time for work

They want any scrap and it's all going in a big file in order to build a case, including the time it takes for MNHQ to remove posts.

Victory for us will look different to that we imagined. It will be keeping the conversation open.

Yes we need to get even better at not being deflected and provoked!

I agree with pratchet.

There are a few threads up at the moment and over the last weeks with posts which actively target specific members to goad them, using poster-specific themes (infertility for example.) no doubt for the dual purpose of banning specific posters and harvesting screenshots.

There are also several posts and a couple of entire threads that are clearly specifically phrased To get people to say The Things That Cannot Be said.

And MNHQ I cannot say this enough and I’m sure you know it - they are never going to be appeased. Nothing you do will be good enough. They want you shut down. This is, as pratchet says, the ONLY mass media forum that talks about these issues. The only one.

So the question you should be asking isn’t how you can appease them, it’s how you tell them to kindly jog on. Because if you close FWR they will move on to other areas. If you weed out the GC feminists from FWR they still won’t be satisfied. They want your business killed. Because your business is women talking. I hope you’re getting good legal advice.

And the rest of us - is it shit to be policing our language? Yup. It bloody well is. But I will do it, because I value this space.

Also reports from non members? That has to stop. No other forum does that and it’s an invite to mass report.

I also agree with pratchet

Well done, Pratchet. It’s utterly shit, but we need to try and ride this out. Yes, create secret groups, yes organise privately. But keep posting here!

Take the long view.

Yes please stop that, seriously I gave a bunch of financial information to some bank to try to be a good MN user, and you let random non members report my posts? I mean I'm sort of joking but really? That's weak.

Pratchet
Thank you for the info and comments. I agree wholeheartedly.

I also think that if we spend more time talking with each other, we may get further.

I don't know a great deal about Gires.

I noticed this comment on the recent CRUK 'everyone with cevixes' needs to have regular smear tests. I didn't realise though that Gendered Intelligence was Gires.

I am concerned by their apparent involvement (influence?) with regards gyny cancer information and campaigns.

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3277806-Cancer-Research-anyone-with-a-cervix

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3287119-Had-a-reply-from-CRUK-re-cervix-havers

Another one agreeing here.

@Pratchet

Yes please stop that, seriously I gave a bunch of financial information to some bank to try to be a good MN user, and you let random non members report my posts? I mean I'm sort of joking but really? That's weak.

Hi Pratchet. If a post that breaks our TGs is drawn to our attention we delete it. If it doesn't break our TGs, we leave it up. It honestly wouldn't be rational to do any different - to see a post which breaks TGs and say 'No, we're leaving it up.' It all has to flow from the guidelines - and plenty of posts don't get deleted.

Hi Kate. Why are non members allowed to report? Other forums don't do this.