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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

How will we know if we have lost good women?

340 replies

loveyouradvice · 13/06/2018 20:26

I fear we will lose some of our strongest most vibrant voices, torn down by the current wordspeak policies..... Can we keep a record here of those we lose? I do NOT want to forget them.

I thought it was so telling that the GC would have happily kept all language (even the abhorrent Cis and Terf) ... while the trans-allies wanted to curtail as much speech as they possibly could....

To all strong GC voices - Please DO NOT leave us - your voice counts for more here than on any other forum.... Mumsnet is watched by the world and will be responsible for our keeping women and girls safe .... even if you have to clip your wings a little to get your message across, please hang on in here ... IT IS SO IMPORTANT

OP posts:
AngryAttackKittens · 14/06/2018 00:03

I wonder how much they spend on the products that MN advertisers want to sell...

VaggieMight · 14/06/2018 00:05

This reply has been withdrawn

This has been withdrawn by MNHQ at poster's request.

thebewilderness · 14/06/2018 00:05

I tweet

The Bewilderness
@tehbewilderness
I am also on FB under my name Rose Grant.
Or you can message me at Trollbusters wordpress blog.
I say this just in case I get a ban notice in the morning.

pombear · 14/06/2018 00:07

Nah Vaggie, gibber, daim and Janice4men types will keep posting on here, keep unwttingly helping women to go 'er, nope' and some of us lurkers like you and me will start talking more.

Those who came before us did the heavy-lifting, many of us may not be as articulate or as well-versed in theory, in the debate, but the earlier posters have helped us understand what is under threat here, and help us start to join the conversation and challenge

pombear · 14/06/2018 00:14

And again for those in the back seats.

I was a 'trans ally'.

I am still 'pro-trans rights' in the fact that all humans should be able to express themselves freely....as long as it doesn't impinge on others' rights.

But once you witness the potential damage that ally-ship to a lobby that has started to demand the impingement of others' rights, that includes questionable, bullying, demanding, abusive behaviours, that seeks to deny truth, language, the ability of females to define their being, to defend their sex-based rights.

And the appropriation of children's development to validate their adult behaviours and beliefs.

You start to talk.

Lysistrataknowsherstuff · 14/06/2018 00:14

I've never posted in FWR before: I've lurked for a long time occasionally posting on other topics under a different username. I really hope that the discussions can continue: I've only just started talking about this IRL. However I have been surprised that everyone I've spoken to is gender critical, and can see straight through this all for what it is. I do however live in a very conservative, daily mail reading area - I work in London and haven't yet been brave enough to discuss this with anyone at work.

MN is my only social media - I survive without FB and Twitter. I may well end up joining Twitter just to follow people, and if MN bans proper discussion on FWR looks like I'll be making me way over to Reddit.

Bespin · 14/06/2018 00:16

Maybe it will be when people stop being deliberately offensive to people and actually debate the issues with out resorting to being offensive to people. Honestly there is no need for people to leave unless they still feel they just want the right to cause offense to others. By all means stay hold a debate but leave of you feel. You can not do that in a civil manner

AngryAttackKittens · 14/06/2018 00:16

At a certain point most people do realize that they are the frog that's being boiled. Hopefully while there's still enough time to jump out of the pot.

pombear · 14/06/2018 00:25

Bespin I've seen things get heated here sometimes, due to frustrations, and sometimes just people being offensive.

But when the definition of being offensive encompasses the action of being able to define females and women outside of a definition that includes 'penis-havers' in case it may offend 'women who have a penis', how on earth can you have a debate about the protection of women's sex-based rights, without being 'offensive'.

The boundaries of what is classified as 'being offensive' are being pushed back again and again by trans voices. It started with 'we identify as women', then 'we are women', to now 'we are female. biologically, because we say so'.

The boiling frog analogy is perfect AAK.

VaggieMight · 14/06/2018 00:29

This reply has been withdrawn

This has been withdrawn by MNHQ at poster's request.

pombear · 14/06/2018 00:29

Waves to Lysistra Lurkers unite!

I'm finding it slightly unerving not being a lurker after over probably 12 years of being here lurking, gaining amazing insight into other people's lives here on Mumsnet, hearing thoughts on parenting, clothes, weddings, cats, fences, parking, politics etc.

That this issue has pushed me out of lurkdom, tells me how significant it is to speak up on. To join those people who've set the groundwork.

SuperLoudPoppingAction · 14/06/2018 00:41

Waves at datun
I think you maybe mean me

I do feel I would like reassurance.
I'm not sure why some folk had responses about their queries re language but my question about lesbians defining our sexuality went unanswered.

But yes - I frequently do feel quite thick. I don't think it makes me a worse feminist.
I think it makes me worse at this particular game or ritual or whatever.

Hopefully if MN have long memories they know I've been active on here for a long time and have organized loads of meet ups and ways of helping women.

Meh.

I can't think of anywhere else I would browse compulsively in the way I browse MN.
I left when folk started getting deleted for knowing about biology.
Came back after maybe a year or two.
I've kept the same account for about 14 years though. I would miss it.

Pratchet · 14/06/2018 00:42

I'm out of MN. At least for the time being. I'm going to focus on positive campaigning

I do think this will backfire because women who are banned from Twitter and banned from MN are not going to give up. They have to write and campaign somewhere so they'll be writing to MPs, ministers, local authorities, schools, setting up meetings, local groups, meanwhile as pp said more new posters will come, and more when the next lot get banned.. this has come just at the right time for the launch of the GRA consultation.

Sorry to see you go Assigned. I agree with you on everything.

Pratchet · 14/06/2018 00:43

I mean, not backfire on us, backfire on TRA.

SuperLoudPoppingAction · 14/06/2018 00:47

I started a thread in book club section just in case any likeminded women fancy a tangentially related chat

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/feminist_book_club/3277374-Book-group-re-language-use-and-feminism

Datun · 14/06/2018 00:52

APAB, AAK and The Bewilderness, please do not leave over this setback.

You must know how this board has influenced people. How women have used it as a springboard to set up other groups, both overt and covert.

Groups who are making headway. Getting press attention and the ears of journalists and radio broadcasters.

This very debacle is just about the most compelling evidence of mumsnetters' success.

It's bloody working.

This is long game. One that will likely go beyond the self id law.

As more and more people are actually affected by it, rather than the principle, the tide will turn.

I totally get it if you've had enough. You've been so brilliant. Hand holding, yelling, joking, stoking fires, soothing brows and informing.

Take time out of course, but keep a toe in the water.

Flowers
Datun · 14/06/2018 00:54

SuperLoudPoppingAction

AngryAttackKittens · 14/06/2018 01:03

For the most part it won't be a matter of women leaving, Datun, anyone who doesn't couch every statement in 15 layers of "now I'm not trying to be unkind and I'm not using those words you told us not to" nonsense is going to end up banned within a week.

InLoveWithDavidTennant · 14/06/2018 01:04

Regroup and keep fighting. We've had to do this a few times now. Its disheartening but i feel it makes us stronger and more determined.

We are women! We will not be silenced! We will not give up! We matter!

Pratchet · 14/06/2018 01:12

We just need to stay on air until the GRA consultation is in the bag. MN is doing a two-step around this but it could really be a couple days of threatening us with gulag while their fingers are crossed behind their back. Just buying a lil more time.

Pratchet · 14/06/2018 01:14

I mean if we can't talk online we will all just lose the fear and talk in real life.

Maryz · 14/06/2018 01:20

Private groups are no use.

The value in MN FWR is the polite discussion that causes lurkers to think.

Going off to a protected site is just speaking into a void. It's important that for every person who is banned someone else steps up and patiently, carefully (within the ever-decreasing bandwidth of allowed terms) explains the gender critical point of view.

I hope no-one goes. But if they are forced to I really hope that void is filled. And as long as it is, as long as every poster who is erased is replaced by another, we will continue to peak-trans educate the newbies, the people who wander here by mistake, the people to whom the trans agenda isn't a big deal - until of course the day they wake up and realise it's a massive deal.

Datun · 14/06/2018 01:24

AngryAttackKittens

I hear what you're saying. But I think we can still make all the same assertions and just work around it.

I also envisage that it might be quite effective for any journalists. The linguistic gymnastics would make fantastically outrageous copy.

I can actually see a lot of unintentional mileage being made.

I'm also quite looking forward to TRAs being forced to call us women. Often.

AtreidesFreeWoman · 14/06/2018 01:34

Regular FWR (and wider MN topics) poster here but have recently NC'd.

There's obviously a lot of (not unfounded) concerns about the new guidelines and what they will mean.

That said, I'm not flouncing because I think there is one very important "victory".

That's the proposal to ban members who repeatedly report posts that don't breach TG's.

I'm pretty certain there are a lot of activists with MN accounts who don't necessarily post but monitor FWR and report with zealous abandon.

Those that do post, often to provoke and "gain" those (often out of context) screen shots to boost their Twitter following whilst also mass reporting against alternative views on their threads, have their hands tied far more than us by these new guidelines. The more zealous the reporting the more likely they are to be banned.

Yes - there are concessions that will have to be made on the use of terminology and pronouns, but frankly I don't feel these issues cannot be overcome, through I do concede I'm going to have to think a lot more carefully about how I articulate some of my views.

Like many, I have days of utter frustration and despair but ironically today wasn't one of them.

FWR is still here. We are still talking and debating.

In RL people are becoming more aware of this issue and (in my personal experience) find it incomprehensible that the denial of biology, impact on sports, removal of single sex spaces and "selling" trans ideology to children has any traction and merit at all.

So I'm here, I'd like to stay and will do my level best to stay within TG's whilst not diluting my opinion.

GinGinGin Grin

thebewilderness · 14/06/2018 01:38

By all means stay hold a debate but leave of you feel. You can not do that in a civil manner

We were being civil but unfortunately the goal posts have shifted once again and now we are cautioned not to state facts that are hurtful to males.
There isn't much leeway to talk about women's rights now that they have been declared to be anti-trans.