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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

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Feminism and trans rights, please enlighten me

293 replies

CornishPasty82 · 05/06/2018 07:38

Hey, Been meaning to post here for a while. I’ce been reading a few of the threads on here lately and I’m wondering - Is it possible to be a feminist and support transgender rights? I would like to think it is but reading on here it seems many people think it isn’t?

I do understand some of the issues with “self ID” (ie people with penises in women’s prisons, shelters, etc), but then again - How many women in prisons have been sexually assaulted by trans men? Is this actually a real problem? (Not goading! Genuinely interested in the facts/people’s viewpoints).

I have lots of fabulous friends and a husband (all feminists😀) who raise their eyebrows and think I’m a transphobe for talking about some of the issues with “self ID” so I’m keen to inform myself more.

I’m interested to here from people with all different view points, and I’m especially interested to see actual data/facts on cases where self ID has resulted in violence against women (or not).

Hope it’s okay to post this, and thanks in advance🙂

OP posts:
CuriousaboutSamphire · 05/06/2018 07:46

Of course. Many of us do. Some posters here are trans themselves.

And yes, there have been attacks/harassments. They have been well documented here.

The key to understanding it is to know that gender critical feminists are not ant trans, not transphobic. They simply disagree with, and are pushing back against, the aggressive male centred behaviour of Trans Activists who make demands that equate to saying gender = sex and biology can be ignored!

The ramifications of this are widely discussed here and may make more sense if you can keep those 2 things in clear focus.

ibaker23 · 05/06/2018 07:57

Cornish
Why are women in prisons?

CornishPasty82 · 05/06/2018 08:05

Curious, thank you. Sorry for being dim, but why is it so dangerous if gender = sex and sex is ignored? For example, if we changed all the language surrounding pregnancy and maternity care to gender neutral language (not saying we should! Just an example I read about), then how would this actually affect the Health care any one receives in a negative way?

Sports is another example that puzzles me, clearly there are important biological differences between men and women (ie sex matters!) and these should be taken into account. But then it seems sort of extreme to deny trans people rights based on the Olympics😀

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CornishPasty82 · 05/06/2018 08:06

I baker I’m not sure I understand your question, presumably they’ve committed a variety of crimes.

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CornishPasty82 · 05/06/2018 08:06

Ps Curious I hope I don’t sound flippant with my comments about the olympics! Just trying to make sense of it all, that’s all.

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ibaker23 · 05/06/2018 08:08

Cornish
And why exactly are women being punished for committing crimes?

Baroquehavoc · 05/06/2018 08:12

Sorry for being dim, but why is it so dangerous if gender = sex and sex is ignored?

Because women and girls are disadvantaged because of their biology, not their gender identity. Many, many women and girls have no gender identity.

Cwenthryth · 05/06/2018 08:15

Please keep reading and researching yourself. There are lots of threads, lots of links. It’s not great forum etiquette to pitch up demanding ‘actual data/facts’ - if you want to inform yourself, then inform yourself, don’t demand that others inform you. For starters have a look at the fairplayforwomen site, lots of facts for you there.

Is it possible to be a feminist and support transgender rights?
Can you clarify what you mean by transgender rights? I support human rights for all humans. That includes people who identify as transgender, and doesn’t conflict with my feminism at all.

How many women in prisons have been sexually assaulted by trans men? Is this actually a real problem?
Unclear if by ‘trans men’ you mean trans-identified males (transwoman) - which has sadly happened in the UK - or trans-identified females (transmen) - numbers of whom in UK prisons is currently not known - we know that there are 25 transgender prisoners in women’s prisons in the UK, we do not know which sex they are.

In any case, how many women being sexually assaulted are required for it to be a ‘real problem’? 1, 10, 100? (Btw, using the term ‘real problem’ inherently implies a suspicion that feminists are somehow lying about our concerns - which isn’t very nice).

MIdgebabe · 05/06/2018 08:17

one of the problems I see with self id is the removal of medical support for those with gender dysmorphia. ( if that's not quite the right word, sorry, I have trouble with spelling and I know there is a word that looks similar, without an m I Think)

Transgender people commit violence at the same rate as their birth sex.

There is also a question of how easy self id would make it for men to pretend to be self id. If we remove the gender dysmorphia diagnosis, and say it is based on word and belief alone, and accept that no surgery, hormones etc is required , then clearly any man could say they are a woman at any time. As was recently demonstrated by David? When he nominated himself for an AWS. It was only when Labour was told clearly that is was making a point about the nonsense of accepting a mans word that Labour removed him.

Self id can remove the ability to track what crimes are committed by self id people as it may be considered discrimatory to identify a self id person. This appears to be the case in Canada.

Self id itself isn't necessarily an issue however, it depends upon how it is interpreted within the culture of the country. Which is essentially the extent to which people will be treated as their chosen gender and the estent to which gender is taken to mean sex.

The current issues seem to be arising because they accepted norm of a few years back, where the typical transsexual person would choose not to push certain issues, has been broken and some want transgender in all circumastance to be accepted as the opposite sex. Including places where today SEX differentiation is used under the principles of the 2010 equality act . Which allows even for a person with a GRC in some circumstances to be treated differently to the sex they identify with.

Society changes today mean that a boy can say he is transgender and expect to use a girls changing room. Again stories are emerging of girls under pressure to accept a boy even when the boy makes them feel uncomfortable.

Personally, I think it is wrong to say that we need to prove there is a problem. I think the opposite should be true. The transgender community needs to prove that the rates of violence by transgender people is that of women's violence. They need to prove that they sightbof a male body exposed and staring at a women changing would never cause trauma or flashbacks to a rape victim. They need to prove that they have no advantage in competitive sports. I think they need to prove this as they are coming from the dominant group ( transmen seem to be quiet in these boards)

As a feminist I would be happy to support the transgender community to enable them to live their lives without discrimination and fear without the need to muscle in on women. However when I asked one on here recently how I could help, they shut up.

HotRocker · 05/06/2018 08:19

Ibaker, what is the point of your question?
Are you saying that women who have been convicted of a crime, many of whom have been subjected to both physical and sexual abuse by their male partners, forfeit the right to safety and protection?

QuoadUltra · 05/06/2018 08:19

I am still not clear what anyone means by ‘trans rights’. What are these rights?

Human rights are human rights and they should be for all and must be equal.

As for trans rights. All I see is extra entitlements. Biological men that think they can help themselves to women’s spaces.

Jeanhatchet · 05/06/2018 08:22

Women have specific needs as a result of their sexed bodies that trans women do not have.

We bleed heavily and often unexpectedly. Some of us give birth. We experience rape. We are beaten.

Some of these things are positive and some negative.

They all ensure we have moments where we are more vulnerable and we have specific requirements when we are at our most vulnerable to be free from the eyes and bodies of those who are male.

It is not cruel or transphobic to protect the right to space which is distinct for our needs. We have no obligation to give up that space for anyone's need for "identity".

ibaker23 · 05/06/2018 08:29

Hotr
Why, pray tell, are women being convicted of a crime?

CuriousaboutSamphire · 05/06/2018 08:31

It boils down to who is in charge?

Do we women have to acquiesce to the demands of men?

Or can we say, no, that doesn't work for us?

I don't want to be cis anything, I don't want to have to change the way I talk about myself. I don't want my sex to be eradicated as the way we speak about a thing helps define how we think about it and treat it. If I become a Not Man, a neutral gender (and remember that is how TRAs phrase things, Men and Something Else that focuses on TIM) I am a woman and will remain one.

Then consider what that means for all sorts of things. Just take gathering of statistics for health care, schooling, building of infrastructure and crime. Take crime: Woman rapes woman... a headline that has already been written. The rapist was a man who transitioned after he raped... and his victim was 'respectfully requested' to refer to her attacker as 'she'. The rapist was sentenced as a woman !

Think that through!

Does that help? There are, unfortunately, a lot of other incidences of such mangled process!

CuriousaboutSamphire · 05/06/2018 08:34

ibaker I'll bite. For many reasons. The varety of crimes is almost as wide as that of men (even rape given my last post)

But a) Not as many crimes as men b) not as violent as men and c) lessening yearly, unlike men

Now, what is your point? It surely cannot be that as they are criminals they deserve to be sexually harrassed as an additional punishment!

ibaker23 · 05/06/2018 08:36

Curious
Just why are these women criminals?

ShotsFired · 05/06/2018 08:37

There is an excellent public post here. Based on what lesbian women especially are experiencing but much of it relevant to all women as well.

www.facebook.com/stillnotgoinganywhere/posts/836789826521915

UrsulaPandress · 05/06/2018 08:37

Still waiting to know what is a woman.

CuriousaboutSamphire · 05/06/2018 08:39

I give in, why are they?

Floeer · 05/06/2018 08:39

Still waiting to know what is a woman

From my understanding of TA arguments a woman is a transwoman whereas a biological female is a ciswoman.

Floeer · 05/06/2018 08:41

Here you go ibaker23

www.bbc.co.uk/bitesize/intermediate2/modern_studies/crime_and_law_in_society/causes_types_crime/revision/1/

or better yet take a degree in Criminology if you want that question answered.

CornishPasty82 · 05/06/2018 08:41

Thanks for all your replies, will reply in a bit.

Just wanted to say to Cwentryth, I’m not sure why you think I’m “demanding” anything, it was just a polite question.

“Real problem” does sound unpleasant! Let me clarify: Are women in prisons more likely (adjusted for numbers of course) to be sexually assaulted by a trans woman than by another female inmate? Of course sexual violence is horrific in any form, but if a trans woman poses no more of a risk than any another female inmate, then this argues against the argument than trans women should not attend female prisons.

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Baroquehavoc · 05/06/2018 08:42

It's obvious to everyone why women and girls need sex segregation. The fact that there are people whose gender is important to them doesn't alter the fact the women and girls needs and want sex segregation.

Baroquehavoc · 05/06/2018 08:44

I've seen no information that proves TIM pose no risk to women, or even that the level of offending is less than other males.

ibaker23 · 05/06/2018 08:44

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