Feminism and trans rights, please enlighten me

[CornishPasty82]

Hey, Been meaning to post here for a while. I’ce been reading a few of the threads on here lately and I’m wondering - Is it possible to be a feminist and support transgender rights? I would like to think it is but reading on here it seems many people think it isn’t?

I do understand some of the issues with “self ID” (ie people with penises in women’s prisons, shelters, etc), but then again - How many women in prisons have been sexually assaulted by trans men? Is this actually a real problem? (Not goading! Genuinely interested in the facts/people’s viewpoints).

I have lots of fabulous friends and a husband (all feminists😀) who raise their eyebrows and think I’m a transphobe for talking about some of the issues with “self ID” so I’m keen to inform myself more.

I’m interested to here from people with all different view points, and I’m especially interested to see actual data/facts on cases where self ID has resulted in violence against women (or not).

Hope it’s okay to post this, and thanks in advance🙂

Men have so much power and influence in society, they could do something about male violence and suicide if they put their minds to it.

Exactly. If men had put as much effort into addressing male violence/toxic masculinity as they put into campaigning for trans rights then they might have all but eradicated male violence by now!

*justifying removing women's protections.

Okay... Telling someone to “fuck off” for having a different opinion is really mature. Good luck getting people to listen to you with that attitude.

Thanks to others for the insights. It seems (for now) that a third (and 4th? For transwomen?) space is the most sensible solution.

Men have so much power and influence in society, they could do something about male violence and suicide if they put their minds to it.

I think this all the time
I say to DH why aren't men angry about women - their wives, sisters, daughters etc being at risk
Yet when we get angry it's "aggressive"

It's really the only solution that would work. Shame that some trans people have already rejected it (will never forget the person who said they'd piss on the floor outside the toilet rather than use a third space/gender neutral option, speaking of those who lack maturity...)

Op.

In the past few months there have been a number of violent male prisoners transferred to women’s prisons.

There has been a rape trial where the victim was forced to address the perpetrator as “She”.

If the self is bill gets passed, not only would you be unable to ask eg a group of men to leave nightclub toilets if they were harassing women. You would be sued for doing so as discrimination. If anybody can self ID on the spot as it were, a lot of protection that women currently receive would be gone in one.

Currently you need to show some commitment to your assumed gender through medical and psychiatrist documentation. This is reasonable.

The transgender activists are complaining that some have been murdered. Well, two in ten years in the U.K. TWo women die a week at the hands of their partners. And THAT, to me is a far bigger problem.

Trans rights do not outweigh our collective rights as women.

And you know what men are like....they carry out the vast majority of violent acts. Why would I want me or my daughters or granddaughters in more danger?

it seems (for now) that a third (and 4th? For transwomen?) space is the most sensible solution.

Yes. I think we all support that. But that's not what the TRAs want, in fact you might be labelled a TERF just by suggesting it.

It seems (for now) that a third (and 4th? For transwomen?) space is the most sensible solution.

Yes, this has got to be the solution. Many of us would be campaigning with not against TRAs if this was what they were after.

But this is where you will start to run into problems, because a significant and vocal part of the trans rights movement aren't interested in compromise. It's about domination of and validation as women and that includes demanding everything we have - use of our language and spaces included.

If you think the political movement that's trans rights activism is actually about protecting people with dysphoria then you haven't appreciated the scale of it, or what's really going on.

Trans rights activism is being used to remove women's rights.

It's being used to whip up violence and hatred against lesbians. Don't believe me? Just google punch & TERF and set it to the last week.

Lesbians who don't accept dick are being told to stay away from Pride or risk violence. Since when was this progressive?

It's not.

If males want in to female spaces and sports etc they must first prove it will not be a disbenefit to females.

thank you WelcomeToGilead. That makes sense. Like OP I am curious and confused by some opinions and the aggressive responses don't help. I don't know any transegender people but have friends who are lesbians. I am quite sientificly minded and am aware that men TEND to be more agressive (biology+society) and women TEND to be more nurturing and protective (biology+society). I've done my own research into psychology and am particuly interested in canine behaviourism. While they are very different to people in terms of evolutionary development, they are socially very similar. Wolves have similar family packs and dogs and humans evolved alongside each other. A male and female pair of dogs is normally the most sucessful in a household. Male Dogs tend to fight with each other over "resources" (food, terotory, bitches) but not very viciously and any injuries are quickly forgotten. Bitch fights are more aggressive and often more of a power play fight, and having 2 bitches living in harmony after a fight is difficult. A bitch will defend herself from horney young males if she is strong enough.

Dogs and humans are obviously very different as dogs have been selectivity bred so don't breed as natrally as humans. They will (male and female) find somewhere they feel safe to go the the toilet as it's a vulnerable thing to do.

I think there ideally should be both male female and shared toilets avalible in public places, even better every toilet should be private and secure (no booths). Problem with this is people often colapse/ can die on the toilet... Women should have privarcy while on their period. Men equally should have privacy when using urninals... a sex not gender issue...

That makes you a raging TERF, Embrace. Yes, it's ridiculous, but unfortunately wanting to maintain any degree of sex segregation is now "bigoted". Which is part of the reason so many women here are so pissed off.

WelcometoGilead do you have a link for that rape trial? I know Maria MacLachlan was instructed to refer to the individual who punched her as "she" and many of us expressed concern that if that instruction was allowed to set a precedent it might (might, not would) be extended to rape trials, but I wasn't aware of any reports of it happening.

Hi, I’ll try and find you the link.

I was horrified. And it
Makes you wonder if there is alread a tacit acceptance of gender self is if it can be enforced in a court of law.

What was the outcome in that trial WelcomeToGilead ? I thought in law only men can commit rape but if the courts recognise the attacker as a woman then was it a sexual assault trial instead of a rape trial? - apologies if I am getting this all wrong and confused, I do not know ins and outs of law.

Flooer rape is defined in UK law as penetration without reasonable belief in consent of the vagina, anus or mouth with a penis. So (barring a vanishingly small number of cases of "common purpose" where, say, a woman holds down the victim while her accomplice penetrates the victim) only people with penises (or what we used to call men when I was a nipper) can commit rape.

Last year I believe there were 6 women convicted of rape. How many of them were transwomen and how many convicted under common purpose isn't recorded (but I know what my money's on).

Lesbians who don't accept dick are being told to stay away from Pride or risk violence. Since when was this progressive?

Where is this please?

Pratchet I've seen quite a bit of that over Twitter actually...

FermatsTheorem Thank you for that clarification, which it was stated clearer whether a woman was convicted for "common purpose" or not then!

Once again, TIM is a term of abuse and should not be used in a public space like this.

I will go and look. Any clues? #pride or is there another hashtag?

Once again TIM is descriptive.

You can't force people to perceive you as something you are not. Women gave up the word "woman" when cross dressers stopped calling themselves transvestites and started calling themselves transwomen. Now they're actually expecting us to think "transwomen are women".
It's not surprising that now we want our word back.

Cross dressing (aka AGP) is the most common paraphilia in sex offenders. I will never call these people anything other than a TIM.

Trans identifying male. How is that abusive?

"I share your concern about self ID, this does open a door to men to lie about their intentions and violate women. The question is, is that actually happening?"

No. Self-ID exists in several countries already and there is no evidence that it is problematic. Why should it be? Any sexual predator is not going to worry about getting their paperwork in order before they abuse women and it is frankly ludicrous to suggest they would.

Trans identifying male. How is that abusive?

Because we're supposed to pretend that they actually are women and never have been any sort of male.

"Trans identifying male. How is that abusive?"

It denies legal gender / sex of some women and is intended to trigger gender dysphoria.