Feminism and trans rights, please enlighten me

[CornishPasty82]

Hey, Been meaning to post here for a while. I’ce been reading a few of the threads on here lately and I’m wondering - Is it possible to be a feminist and support transgender rights? I would like to think it is but reading on here it seems many people think it isn’t?

I do understand some of the issues with “self ID” (ie people with penises in women’s prisons, shelters, etc), but then again - How many women in prisons have been sexually assaulted by trans men? Is this actually a real problem? (Not goading! Genuinely interested in the facts/people’s viewpoints).

I have lots of fabulous friends and a husband (all feminists😀) who raise their eyebrows and think I’m a transphobe for talking about some of the issues with “self ID” so I’m keen to inform myself more.

I’m interested to here from people with all different view points, and I’m especially interested to see actual data/facts on cases where self ID has resulted in violence against women (or not).

Hope it’s okay to post this, and thanks in advance🙂

male feelings are not equivalent to female safety

However I am still not convinced that men identifying as women pose a risk to women in those places.

There are TIM in UK prisons guilty of sexual attacks on women. The risk is there.

If you are saying that the risk is too low to be significant, why does this set of males get to be in women's spaces but not other low risk of sex offending males?

It may be hard for the OP to understand the need for sex segregated spaces if they are in the enviable position of never having been violated by a man. This is something few women enjoy, and they may be speaking - as people generally tend to when unable to understand the concerns of a specific group - from a position of privilege. Certainly not one I begrudge them, but it is rare in women.

The issue for me, at least, it not about fully or mid-and-on-track transitioned transwomen (or transmen). For all relevant intents and purposes, they have committed to their chosen gender, and it makes sense, at least to me, to accept and treat them as such.

Self-ID clearly opens the category of 'woman' (or 'man', but men do not generally feel threatened by women) to people who have no intent to transition, and who need to give no other evidence than their say-so, to men looking for sexual gratification from women in situations not intended for this type of interaction. The documented range of transgressions ranges from gratuitous uses tampon/towel fetishes (gross but not necessarily harmful to women) to hidden cameras (and, yes, more physical forms of sexual assault in extreme cases), but perhaps most importantly through seeking validation from 'captured audiences' of vulnerable women, if self-ID MtF autogynephiles
gain legal grounds for working in women's shelters or being transferred to female prisons.

The focus should probably not be on 'genuine' trans people, but on the leeway changes in law would give to men who would lie to abuse vulnerable women. And this is where the privilege of not having experienced abuse might come in. It is patently obvious to those of us who have that many men will lie and deceive to do so. I have not lived an excessively adventurous life, and I have encountered many; most in passing, some insidious and in close quarters.

Men with a sexual interest in women will lie and deceive to gain the access they crave, and display a surprising degree of persistence in doing so.

I need no other reason to oppose self-ID.

Interesting point cubanoak, but arguably the safety of transwomen is at risk as well (if they were placed in a male prison)

(Apologies for autocorrect gremlins - it feels weird to say 'I meant to type used tampons/towels', but here we are.)

Trans women have no rights to enter womens spaces or to use services they don't need. The spaces are arranged by biological sex.

The majority of trans identifying males don't have surgery and remain entirely male.

Go fight for unisex spaces and service. The women who feel comfortable using them will do so.

OP in your case, it appears to come down to an acceptance that 'trans women are women'. Unfortunately, for them, and for born women (i don't like to have to clarify that, but there you go), we only have their word for it. It's not enough for me, particularly in a situation such as prisons, where the inmate population is self-selectedly generally less honest and more likely to behave criminally. So, let's just stick with sex segregation, and have a third space for transwomen if necessary. I think there may be less dishonest applications from males wanting to transfer to the transwomen's wing than we see trying to get into women's prisons.

Very interesting post undercover. (with the exception of your assumption I have perhaps never experienced male violence. Sadly I don’t think I know a single woman to whom this applies).

So do you accept transwomen who have fully transitioned to be women? And therefore have access to women’s spaces?

I share your concern about self ID, this does open a door to men to lie about their intentions and violate women. The question is, is that actually happening? That’s why I’m
Interested in the stats (if there are any).

Interesting point cubanoak, but arguably the safety of transwomen is at risk as well (if they were placed in a male prison)

But that's not women's problem to solve. It certainly isn't a woman in prison problem.

The solution to male on male violence isn't to stop sex segregation for women.

As I read what I typed, a really obvious thing with this debate is how it simultaneously centres and obscures men.

It centres the feelings of men who want to feel pretty and be close to feminine things, and obscures the real risks posed to women by men looking for sexual gratification without the willing participation of women.

There's obviously nothing new under the sun.

Is it possible to be a feminist and support transgender rights?

Yes, as you'd see from the many other posts on this board asking this very same questions. Most of the transpeople who post here are feminists too.

But it appears you only want to try and disprove any argument you're presented with, like many of the "genuinely interested first-time posters on this subject". If I'm wrong and you are genuine, then I apologise but I've seen too many use this tactic to goad MNetters.

I have yet to see convincing evidence (NOT single case studies) on large cohorts demonstrating that transwomen pose a significantly larger risk to biological women than other biological women

I doubt very much any exists because transpeople pose no greater threat to women than any other person on the planet. That is not the argument. The argument is that self-id takes away women's rights to question who uses women-only spaces and that sex offenders who say they are transwomen to move prisons are a threat to female inmates. It is not about people who identify as trans. It is about protecting women from those men who will abuse it. Those men. Not those transwomen. As you say yourself, transwomen could be at risk from some men too and yet it's feminists who are seen as the enemy.

Asking for "proof" about something that is not the argument is a classic Strawman trick.

Hapday sorry if I come across as goady! As you can read up thread I have already accepted the need for sex segregated spaces thanks to Baroque. So not just interested in refuting your arguments.

Baroque: a bit harsh to say that’s not women’s problem!! As far as I can see, transwomen being subject to violence in a male prison is a HUMAN problem, and we should all strive to solve it. However I agree with you that placing them in a female prison may not be the best solution.

Undercover: it’s not just about the “feelings” of men, it’s about the satefg of transwomen too.

Yes, Cornish, I have no problems accepting the fully transitioned.

In regard of stats, both you and I know that we don't even have reliable stats on sexual assault that doesn't explicitly involve transwomen. There is plenty anecdotal evidence of continued sexually aggressive behaviour - some earlier posts provided links to online repositories of such reports that are being put together to build banks of knowledge on the subject.

Tampon-collection isn't a crime. It's gross, but no one has gathered official stats. Men finding sexual gratification through validation of their identity from attention (in a similar fashion to what exhibitionists seek) from women in shelters or prisons would, if granted the legal rights, also not be committing a crime. But could you say that it would be ethical?

My own case study of one suggests that way more men that we'd like to think will easily dismiss women's integrity to get their kicks.

There are deeper issues regarding whose concerns matter more at play, both in regard of what is researched, and the wider debate.

CornishPasty82
What do you mean by 'fully transitioned'? The vast majority of transwomen keep their penis. If they have had surgery, it usually means facial feminisation and/or breast augmentation. If someone has a penis, they are not a woman.

There is no requirement to have genital surgery to acquire a gender recognition certificate in the UK.

Cornish it feels like this conversation is at cross purposes because your starting point is different from most other posters.

One starting point is that the word 'women' refers to biological females (xx) , (and that sex based segregation is in place in certain, very limited circumstances to protect this group from male violence).

The other starting point is that the word woman refers to anyone who says they feel like a woman (and biological sex is irrelevant to this, thus woman/man based segregation becomes irrelevant).

I wonder if it would be a useful thought exercise to start from the other definition and see where that leads you? Maybe that would help, not in necessarily agreeing, and changing what you think, but perhaps in understanding how other reach such different conclusions?

There is no requirement to have genital surgery to acquire a gender recognition certificate in the UK

When I first read about that along with

The vast majority of transwomen keep their penis

for the first time I was shocked, I do not think that the majority of people realise this

Floeer

Indeed, in fact it's worth repeating.

The vast majority of transwomen keep their penis

And, in response to the relative importance of the feelings of men who want to feel pretty vs. women feeling threatened in spaces where they need to be safe - nope, sorry.

I might like to feel pretty, but Monday morning is relentless. As is the passage of time. Feeling pretty is a luxury in this context, and expendable. As per my previous distinction between the fully transitioned and the intact male, this does not refer to the former. Once transitioned, things change. Fully intact men who want to feel pretty can do so in their own time and space, and at their own expense. Validation of attractiveness is not something that's owed anyone, ever, for whatever reason.

Toxic masculinity isn't a "human problem"-don't lump women in with this. Women dont rape anybody. Women are not responsible for the majority of violent crimes. It's a male problem and I don't see men doing much about it. When will men be held accountable?

I find it interesting that problems purely impacting those with a vagina are "women's problems", or "cis women problems" if you're steeped in gender theory, while problems that have an impact on those with a Y chromosome are "human problems" and must be addressed by those with a vagina and given priority over problems that have an impact on us.

Just an interesting way of seeing the world that those who see things that way may find encounters a lot of pushback in feminist spaces.

Cornish did you read this link from a P.O. earlier? It was written from the view of prison governors - the acknowledged experts on safety in prisons. And it was very clear that there should be separation.

I'm not suggesting trans women should be put at risk. But the way to keep them safe isn't to put women at risk instead. Maybe it's time for a transgender wing to be built (well 2, one for each gender). But as many trans people keep their original genitalia that would still be risky for ones who has transition (for trans women, those who hadn't for transmen.)

www.thetimes.co.uk/article/governors-fight-trans-inmates-in-women-s-jails-vg0kpv5q0?shareToken=2a1a45ad952bd5af1fe2bbe36944

Cornish
If self-ID comes in, how will you tell if a male bodied person in a female only space is
A) transgender or
B) a violent sex offender who is taking advantage?

Pp*

a bit harsh to say that’s not women’s problem!! As far as I can see, transwomen being subject to violence in a male prison is a HUMAN problem, and we should all strive to solve it.

Women have plenty of problems to solve - maternity care; breastfeeding support at work; period poverty for starters.

Male violence against other males is not something women can, or should be required to, solve.

I have to say it would be educational for the general public to study sexual links and the psychology behind them.

Old-school flashers, for example. Similar to senders of unsolicited dickpics, perhaps. They specifically get off on exposing their genitals to women who recoil in fear. It's the fear that is the kick. This kink is exceedingly common. Who hasn't been flashed at, in digital or online life?

Or cross dressing. Super common. Lots of heterosexual men like to borrow the women friends' clothes for parties - or sometimes, surreptitiously for private wearings. I had my entire wardrobe 'borrowed' like this once.

Or stalking. Way too common, and incredibly threatening.

Men don't seem to understand how these things affect women. Seriously. Speak to them. Many simply don't think it's a big deal as long as they don't jump out of a bush and wrestle you to the ground or hold you at knifepoint.