Feminism and trans rights, please enlighten me

[CornishPasty82]

Hey, Been meaning to post here for a while. I’ce been reading a few of the threads on here lately and I’m wondering - Is it possible to be a feminist and support transgender rights? I would like to think it is but reading on here it seems many people think it isn’t?

I do understand some of the issues with “self ID” (ie people with penises in women’s prisons, shelters, etc), but then again - How many women in prisons have been sexually assaulted by trans men? Is this actually a real problem? (Not goading! Genuinely interested in the facts/people’s viewpoints).

I have lots of fabulous friends and a husband (all feminists😀) who raise their eyebrows and think I’m a transphobe for talking about some of the issues with “self ID” so I’m keen to inform myself more.

I’m interested to here from people with all different view points, and I’m especially interested to see actual data/facts on cases where self ID has resulted in violence against women (or not).

Hope it’s okay to post this, and thanks in advance🙂

This

that's a lot of women and children harmed before people take notice. I don't understand why anyone would think this is a reasonable course of action.

How many women and children are acceptable as collateral damage? I have asked this before. Never get an answer.

Thanks sleepingdragons for your very clear post and thanks djlippy for the link.

So I’ve found this article which looked (amongst other things) at violence in transwomen, and apparently the earlier part of the cohort did show crime rates were sejmilar between transwomen and biological males, but the latter part of the cohort did not.

medium.com/@notCursedE/do-trans-women-retain-male-pattern-violence-df67954373fd

(It’s mainly the link to the article itself and the first author’a comments of her data that are of interest here, not the bloggers own biased comments)

I worked out a while ago that given the estimated reporting rates and conviction rates in the UK, that for every one sex crime conviction represents over 100 more sex crimes that have been unreported / not reached conviction.

DJLippy

Having looked at your link I’m not sure how helpful it is. It’s just a list of crimes committed, so unless it is a complete and comprehensive list it’s probably very biased! What is more informative than individual case studies is research (crime stats) on very large cohorts.

You don't understand why there are sex specific spaces and services, so start your enquiry there.

Its irrelevant whether you believe or understand or not; there are women who do understand why they want single sex spaces, and you can explain why its so urgent to get rid of them.

Thanks upstart I guess you are right! Perhaps I don’t understand the need for single sex spaces.

I have yet to see convincing evidence (NOT single case studies) on large cohorts demonstrating that transwomen pose a significantly larger risk to biological women than other biological women.

CornishPasty82 that list is useful as the TRA line is that women are at no risk from letting transwomen into women's spaces.

You don't need "crime stats on very large cohorts" to prove the existence of something. A list is enough. The list proves it exists, it is a risk.

What it doesn't prove is how big that risk is. But, we know from other stats that 98% of sex crimes are committed by men.

Once we've shown that men and transwomen are actively committing crimes against women, surely the burden of proof should be on the transwomen to prove they're not a risk* not the women and children to prove they're being assaulted?

• (if they can prove such a thing, I don't think they can prove they're not a risk as transwomen have male pattern violence)

I have yet to see convincing evidence (NOT single case studies) on large cohorts demonstrating that transwomen pose a significantly larger risk to biological women than other biological women.

Perhaps you can explain why they wouldn't be expected to pose the same risk as men? Which is much higher than women?

And link to some "convincing evidence"? Thanks so much in advance.

Perhaps I don’t understand the need for single sex spaces

Maybe this is the issue then.

Do you accept that the vast majority of sex crime is committed by men, and that women (as a group) are at risk of assault from men (as a group)?

Thanks upstart I guess you are right! Perhaps I don’t understand the need for single sex spaces.

Yes it would appear that way!

Thanks upstart I guess you are right! Perhaps I don’t understand the need for single sex spaces.

You really don't understand why prisons, for example are segregated by sex?

OP hopefully someone will be able to link it - I recall seeing a link which described the percentage of transwomen prisoners being jailed for sexual crime, it was on par with men (so grossly above that of women). I've been following this debate quite a bit recently as previous I was a liberal feminist that didn't see the issue of trans or self-ID - just blindly took it for the right thing to be in support of as falls under the LGB umbrella etc.

Floeer here it is. Fair Play For Women estimated it from the evidence they could find int he public realm. They were accused of making it up.

But - the FOI request just came out, from the Ministry of Justice, and what do you know? Fair Play's estimates were spot on.

This is male pattern violence. Female prisoners do not show this kind of offending profile. This shows that transwomen - as far as crime is concerned - are not the same as women.

Oh please do link to another Cursed E Medium article to tell us why we are so wrong OP.

Cornish
Thanks upstart I guess you are right! Perhaps I don’t understand the need for single sex spaces

I think this is the crux of the matter. If sex is of no consequence to you in relation to sex based provision, you are bound to find responses on this board baffling. However, upon realising this you may also realise that the interests commonly expressed on this board are neither anti-trans or transphobic, they are about trying to preserve the right to single sex spaces.

Now that one IS a derailer - even I can confidently call that one!

OP I'm v gender critical in the sense of not accepting the behaviours shoul din any way be dictated by one's biological sex, and definitely a feminist.

However, I do have trans people in my life to various degrees, and often find myself defending their life choices on this board.

I'm still not sure where I stand on self ID but I am pretty firmly trans inclusive.

52 male born trans in sex offender or max security prisons - from the MoJ.

Bloody hell.

CornishPasty82 You have stated that you don't see the need for single sex spaces and services. The reasons include safety and privacy.

You cant provide any evidence mixed sex spaces are safer for women as they aren't, they are associated with an increased risk of harm.

Its not up to us to provide evidence to convince people why we need to keep them. There are women who want single sex spaces and services. Thats why we have them.

Its up to people who want to eradicate them to admit why they dont fight for a third unisex space.

Its up to people who want to eradicate them to admit why they dont fight for a third unisex space.

This.

cornish

Andrea Albutt, president of the Prison Governors Association, told The Mail on Sunday: “I have seen women feeling very threatened by transgender prisoners’ presence . . . To put men who declare they are women into women’s prisons would be very damaging.”
From
www.thetimes.co.uk/article/governors-fight-trans-inmates-in-women-s-jails-vg0kpv5q0?shareToken=2a1a45ad952bd5af1fe2bbe36944321c

Erehskigal I’m really not sure what you’re hoping to achieve with your not-very-nice attitude... shouldn’t we be able to have an open and honest discussion without being sarcastic?

Do you really not see why sex segregation exists?

BaroqueHavoc

Thank you, yes. Of course prisons should be segregated by sex. So yes, I guess we do need single sex spaces.

However I am still not convinced that men identifying as women pose a risk to women in those places.

And I disagree with the poster who said that the list is enough, to me it is relevant to know what exactly the risk is. Because we have to weigh this risk against trans women’s rights/needs to access women’s spaces.

I’m not at al saying that low rates of violence against women are somehow acceptable, but the number does become relevant when we are also trying to accommodate the needs of people who do not identify with the sex they were assigned at birth.

BaroqueHavoc, crosspost!

Yes I do understand now, thanks:-)

Also, the men in the recent ManFriday event objected strongly to the women coming into their space. I found this heartening, that it isn't just women who want to preserve their dignity & privacy, not sure if safety was much of an issue in this instance, but it is for women. Apart from those who don't get this.