Feminism and trans rights, please enlighten me

[CornishPasty82]

Hey, Been meaning to post here for a while. I’ce been reading a few of the threads on here lately and I’m wondering - Is it possible to be a feminist and support transgender rights? I would like to think it is but reading on here it seems many people think it isn’t?

I do understand some of the issues with “self ID” (ie people with penises in women’s prisons, shelters, etc), but then again - How many women in prisons have been sexually assaulted by trans men? Is this actually a real problem? (Not goading! Genuinely interested in the facts/people’s viewpoints).

I have lots of fabulous friends and a husband (all feminists😀) who raise their eyebrows and think I’m a transphobe for talking about some of the issues with “self ID” so I’m keen to inform myself more.

I’m interested to here from people with all different view points, and I’m especially interested to see actual data/facts on cases where self ID has resulted in violence against women (or not).

Hope it’s okay to post this, and thanks in advance🙂

Why don't you start a new thread, ibaker?

Floeer
You don't understand.

Baroque
Because this thread wouldn't exist if 300.000 women were released from UK prisons

Because this thread wouldn't exist if 300.000 women were released from UK prisons

That would be a challenge.

ibaker23
You don't understand

That's because you keep asking questions with no context. If you want people to answer your questions you need to make yourself more clear.

This person clearly isn't asking questions in good faith. They are derailing multiple threads.

Baro
And you're not up to it. Got it.

OldC
"Why are women being convicted?" A: "Because 50 other people say they must be punished". How is that not clear?

I've seen no information that proves TIM pose no risk to women, or even that the level of offending is less than other males.

Are you asking for actual research to prove hyperbolic claims? Crikey. Listen to the tumbleweed roll past....

Simply saying trans women pose no risk is insufficient to make it so.

Eresh
I want every person in prison in every country to be released right now. How is that not good faith?

Argh - sorry re last comment - I don't know how to quote on this platform!

Are women in prisons more likely (adjusted for numbers of course) to be sexually assaulted by a trans woman than by another female inmate?

Basic risk assessment tells us that male-bodied people, especially those with a history of sexual offending against women and girls (e.g., Paris Green, Jessica Hambrook, Marie Dean) pose a greater risk to women than randomly-selected women prisoners with e.g. convictions for possession of drugs, yes. There is no need to conduct an experiment on the number of women they will succeed in raping, assaulting or harassing if allowed access to them.

I'm loving ibaker's Socratic approach to sealioning

OP. The burden of proof is on the person making the claim. There is no reason for trans identified males to be considered safer to be housed with women than any other male. And it's also about the privacy and dignity of female prisoners, or hadn't you considered them?

I'm loving ibaker's Socratic approach to sealioning

I'd rather JAQ than Fleetwood Mac.

Oh! One of those!

Cornish Your thread seems to have been hijacked. You may not now get the kind of discussion you want / need. Taking you on good faith, could you skip over the obvious weirdnesses?

To answer you: that is because transwoman, who are men, are as violent as any other man and commit violent crimes as often as, and in much the same was as,, any other group of men. So yes, they are more violent than women, offenders or not. So yes they do add to the incidence of violence in a womens prison, sexual or other wise.

All statistical and hypothetical, but why would women happily agree to put themselves and/or other women at greater risk in any situation ?

Tallu
If you read what I said to OldC then you'll understand how I have a hard time believing you had a hard time answering my questions................................

Curious
Yea I hijacked this thread by saying I think no one should be in prison........................................................

CornishPasty82
Of course sexual violence is horrific in any form, but if a trans woman poses no more of a risk than any another female inmate, then this argues against the argument than trans women should not attend female prisons.

Transwomen commit sexual crimes at the same rate as men - men commit about 98% of sexual crimes. A female prisoner could become pregnant following rape by a transwoman with a penis.

I'm loving ibaker's Socratic approach to sealioning

It's an interesting new approach right enough...all the derailers/trolls/ sea lions constantly evolving like some kind of Pokemon

Hi all, it's pretty clear that we have picked up a derailer. We're on the case, but we'll leave the posts so that the thread makes some sort of sense. No need for further reports on this one, thanks!

Thanks, Hope! Was about to resort to random lyrics, which have been equally irrelevant but more fun to read.

Are women in prisons more likely (adjusted for numbers of course) to be sexually assaulted by a trans woman than by another female inmate?

You're looking at this in the wrong way. This kind of thinking is exactly why women and girls are being put at risk in safe spaces.

As I'm sure you are aware, the vast majority of sexual crimes are committed by men not women. 98% IIRC.

There is no evidence that when someone born and socialised male transitions, that they take on female-pattern violence. In fact the evidence suggests they retain male-pattern violence.

Also, the vast majority of MTF trans keep their genitals intact.

Why do we separate men and women generally, in places where women are naked and/or vulnerable? If that's not obvious to you, let me spell it out: to protect women from sexual assault and pregnancy, to afford women dignity and privacy.

If transwomen have male pattern violence then it is obvious why they should not be in women's prisons, isn't it?

However, if you start from the assumption that transwomen are women in every way, including their pattern of violence, based on political rather than scientific evidence - then you are asking women and children to disprove that by actually being sexually assaulted and managing to be believed and successfully reporting it. Given the low reporting rates for sexual assault, that's a lot of women and children harmed before people take notice. I don't understand why anyone would think this is a reasonable course of action.

And then there's stuff that isn't a crime, but isn't a situation we shoudl create. e.g. would you like to be forced to shower with a criminal with a penis who is attracted to women? Or to sleep in the same cell as them? I wouldn't. Why should other women have to?

I'll just make the same point as someone on Twitter always does:

If a male person chooses to rape a female person, that person has chosen their gender and they have also chosen the gender of the person they raped. I'm afraid they've already self-IDd by using their penis as a weapon of violence.

And this applies whether you are considering sex (bio males rape bio females) or gender (the oppressor man rapes the oppressed woman).

Here is a link to information regarding transwomen who have committed violent and sexual crimes

randomstabbing.tumblr.com/post/144989720467/the-tip-of-the-iceberg-please-add-to-this-list

We are not just making this stuff up - there are hundreds of documented cases - not to mention the fact that women often don't report sexual assaults to the authorities meaning the true amount is likely to be much higher...