Where do we draw the trans line....?

[loveyouradvice]

Really interesting reading all the Daily Mail comments on latest Man Friday article.... most seemed quite happy with the idea of transsexuals using women's facilities, but no transwomen with dangly bits.

This used to be my position - and may still be so... but I am really concerned the more I read about certain transsexuals (the previously macho late-transitioning type).... those with rampant AGP which leads them to fetishise women's bodies and being in women's spaces in a very mansplainy way.... I feel very squeamish about sharing space with them.... and was deeply shocked by learning that some comb bins for used tampons and pads and wear them to "feel more like a woman" and then celebrate and share this online with other fetishists.....

My suspicion is that for the sake of what one might see as the transsexuals we have long shared space with, out of courtesy and respect, that yes it is okay for them to be in some women's spaces .... But my concern is that with TRAs being so active and the transgender movement steamrollering ahead, that more of the aggressive AGP type are going to feel liberated to come out of the closet and into our spaces....and the balance will shift

I know this is just academic - given that focussing on No Self-Id is our priority - but would be very interested in hearing what other's think as I try to clarify my own position

I think it's bloody hard. And making me very concerned about using facilities whilst out and about tbh.

The rise in cases of cameras being found in unisex facilities like Starbucks is very worrying as well. I'm not sure how you're supposed to guard against ending up on pornhub?

I'm coming to the conclusion that 3 spaces will be needed. And one should be strictly for biological women only.

Dangly bits. Unfortunately the ECHR disagrees.

I'll have to accept the tiny tiny number of post op AGPs too and just be glad they can't rape me

Why should women accept this though. I used to be ok with post op women using women's facilities, but know I agree with busy, after all how are we to know which are sans male genitalia?

It's shite that old school transsexual woman have been put in this position, but that isn't women's fault.

Unfortunately for the (post-op) "transsexuals" who I have absolutely no problem with, there isn't really an easy way to draw a line, without making everyone just use the facilities of their "birth sex".
So what I think will eventually happen is that the TRAs will be restricted from going in to women's spaces, as they should be, but the transexuals will suffer for it.

I’m getting more hardline on it. Went from full trans ally “of course TW ARE women you bigot” to thinking female has to be mean female. Truly early transitioning TW/TG who pass will use wherever they want. Problem is if you see someone who is obviously male - there is no way to know if that person has had srs, been diagnosed, has GRC etc or is a self defining intact TW or a creep abusing the system. Unfortunate for the few transsexuals out there who folk originally tolerated under the understanding they were “real trans” having being diagnosed, srs etc. Problem is most look/sound male and that’s what i would see first. It’s maybe not fair that passing matters but hey ho - that’s how i feel now and I can’t unsee and unknow that the person next to me in a dres is male, male, male.

I don't think any male-born person, regardless of medical/surgical status, should be: in women's sports, providing intimate services and/or healthcare to women requesting women practitioners, taking spaces on affirmative action programmes for women; be counted as women in gender parity statistics or crime statistics; be eligible for women's awards.

So that's quite a comprehensive list!

Toilets and changing rooms? No dick.

Dangly bits. Unfortunately the ECHR disagrees.

Disagrees about gender change being recognised but not EA exemptions.

Also the whole human rights discussion at that level has been happening with no representation, understanding of or thought for women's concerns. That needs to change.

Women's rights and concerns

*I don't think any male-born person, regardless of medical/surgical status, should be: in women's sports, providing intimate services and/or healthcare to women requesting women practitioners, taking spaces on affirmative action programmes for women; be counted as women in gender parity statistics or crime statistics; be eligible for women's awards.

So that's quite a comprehensive list!

Toilets and changing rooms? No dick.*

Doesn’t sound unreasonable, problem is you can’t tell which male looking person in a dress has a penis or not, plus as seen - give an inch, take a whole continent. It’s all too complicated to make some exceptions for this and that and will always lead back to complete access on self id. So I’m really thinking - female only is the only way to keep female meaning female

So I’m really thinking - female only is the only way to keep female meaning female.

Now we've got the AGP piggybacking onto the dysphoric, I'm afraid you're right.

A man's internal thoughts and ideas and identity are not closer to those of mine because he has surgically altered his body.

There is literally nothing a man can do to his body that makes him anything other than a man. Women are not men with body modifications. We're also not a personality type that certain men also have.

It was always a mistake to introduce this pretence of men becoming women and we should have learned lessons that ratifying a lie is disastrous. We should never have lied to these people in the first place. You can't sustain this lie and it is becoming explosive trying to.

My line is simply the truth. It's a hard line, but there it is.

A man taking female hormones doth not a woman make. Neither does any amount of surgery. Women's spaces for women. No exceptions.

For decades this has hardly ever been an issue. Many women, myself included, were quite happy to share toilets, changing rooms and many other spaces with transwomen. And I doubt many men give transmen a second thought.

But the current TRA/AGP aggression has made me far less accepting. Once they started with the "We are women and so demand access to ALL female spaces, including refuges" shit I changed my mind entirely.

Purely because of the aggression, lack of respect and refusal to enter into open debate, I too would know say no men, at all! And I'd probably help pay for a gene scanning machine to be invented and installed in relevant doorways.

That shouldn't surprise anyone with even a rudmentary knowledge of physics: Every action has an opposite and equal reaction

AKA Push me, shove you, oh yeah says who? As some daft characters in an equally daft film once said!

Where do I draw the line? At birth.

If change needs to happen, it should be society accepting effeminate men and butch women as they are. Biology matters and no amount of drugs and surgery will change that. Fact.

I'm happy sharing changing rooms and toilets with transwomen who have had genital surgery to remove their penises. I think if you really hate your male body and want to identify as a woman then this should be an obvious thing to do anyway. If you don't want to give up your penis then you obviously aren't that gender dysphoric and are still invested in your maleness and male sexuality so not a transwoman.
I don't believe having your penis removes turns you in to a woman and I think it's a shame you couldn't find happiness within the body and sex identity you were born with but that's not my problem and sharing facilities with someone who has gone to that extent to appear female is fine by me. Happy to use female pronouns for transwomen without penises as well.
I think (hope) the tampon fetishists are probably a very small minority although males are more in to sexual fetishes than females..

Cameras in Starbucks? Any links to this please. This is really disturbing

I read that stuff on Twitter about pp wearing used tampons and sanitary towels too, so gross! I'm now suspended from Twitter for saying a certain person, who is a biological male, is a man. They won't allow me back on until I delete my tweet.

So I am forced to lie and self censor to have a voice now.

Fuck that shit

I have lots of issues with the whole trans movement, but this doesnt extend to people with genuine dysphoria that actually transition as much as they can. I especially have no issue with trans people that dont try and shit all over womens protected spaces.
Unfortunately I cant tell who is who, and it makes me nervous, because it looks like a lot of these people wish me actual phsyical harm

Starbucks and other coffee shops often have a mixed sex single cubicle toilet. There is just not enough room in most of them to have single sex toilets. It has nothing to do with transgender and more to do with a pervert installing a camera in a toilet. Are people now saying that they will refuse to use the same single self-contained cubicle as a men/trans women? Because if so, you might find that your options are a bit limited.

PeakPants

Do you think the current push on self ID will be abused by those perverts as mentioned in your post to gain access to single sex facilities?

Do you think the current push on self ID will be abused by those perverts as mentioned in your post to gain access to single sex facilities?

There will always be the odd case, I am sure. I don't think unisex facilities are a bad thing where they consist of single self-contained cubicles with a sink. If you go to somewhere like Sweden, you will find that many toilet facilities are unisex cubicles and have been for a very long time. I don't think they have an exponentially high rate of people being filmed on the toilet.

Also, it undermines the argument when you talk about how perverts will 'pretend' to be trans and gain access (like Sarah Ditum said on genderquake) when in actual fact, you don't want 'real' transwomen there anyway. So why bother talking about people who 'fake' being trans? Just come out and say what you mean.

The alleged practice of stealing used sanitary towels is clearly disgusting but I suspect is unique to a very small number of fetishists and the suggestion that this might now become commonplace all of a sudden is quite frankly absurd.

I draw the line at not giving the tiniest shit what's in someone else's undies, and I don't get why this is an issue for people.

And why is a feminist board reducing a whole spectrum to birth-males? What about trans-men?

And as a woman that's had all kinds of crap over the years from the patriarchy, I'm pretty sure hardcore biological determinism is playing right into misogynist hands.

I have already said what I mean above. The current inclusion of everybody under the trans umbrella including those with sexual fetishes and the aggression of TRAs means I'm not comfortable with any male born person in a female single sex facility.

That isn't my fault and I am allowed my own boundaries.

Also if a man is already prepared to break the law by installing covert cameras why wouldn't they pretend to be trans to access single sex facilities. Pretending to be trans under self I'D would be the easiest thing in the world.