Where do we draw the trans line....?

[loveyouradvice]

Really interesting reading all the Daily Mail comments on latest Man Friday article.... most seemed quite happy with the idea of transsexuals using women's facilities, but no transwomen with dangly bits.

This used to be my position - and may still be so... but I am really concerned the more I read about certain transsexuals (the previously macho late-transitioning type).... those with rampant AGP which leads them to fetishise women's bodies and being in women's spaces in a very mansplainy way.... I feel very squeamish about sharing space with them.... and was deeply shocked by learning that some comb bins for used tampons and pads and wear them to "feel more like a woman" and then celebrate and share this online with other fetishists.....

My suspicion is that for the sake of what one might see as the transsexuals we have long shared space with, out of courtesy and respect, that yes it is okay for them to be in some women's spaces .... But my concern is that with TRAs being so active and the transgender movement steamrollering ahead, that more of the aggressive AGP type are going to feel liberated to come out of the closet and into our spaces....and the balance will shift

I know this is just academic - given that focussing on No Self-Id is our priority - but would be very interested in hearing what other's think as I try to clarify my own position

This is where it gets complicated though isnt it, because TIFs can pass extremely well as men due to the powerful effect of testosterone, so how would you know they were a TIF and not just any old dude saying he is one?

There is such a thing as "perceived maleness" being a factor in "the line" for some.

I think passability is really the elephant in the room that we're never allowed to talk about. If you don't pass (either way) you don't enter IMO.

LangCleg listed these situations

should be: in women's sports, providing intimate services and/or healthcare to women requesting women practitioners, taking spaces on affirmative action programmes for women; be counted as women in gender parity statistics or crime statistics; be eligible for women's awards.

Would it be happy for a TIF in these circumstances? I'd have to really think about that because even just perceived maleness in say intimate care or rape crisis can be triggering or just uncomfortable for some women. But if they're clearly female but an "I prefer he pronouns" person like JM, then they're just women to me.

In theory I accept TIFs as female so I am far more comfortable with a TIF than a biological male in general women's spaces.

*to fmsfms

The acceptance of women's awards, roles, being counted in diversity as women, advising on women's issues, changing language about female biology, mothering, sexuality etc. This is all psychological colonisation. It's bad. The government is colluding in this.

Sorry all! However the agyp elephant in the room is rarely discussed.

yeah 2rebecca, I think sport is what I feel strongest about. women having to compete against men is so damn unfair. If you are male you shouldn't compete in women's sports, full stop.

it was actually all women short lists that pulled me down this rabbit hole. again, representation of transwomen should not come at the expense of representation of women. no male should be on an all women shortlist (and yes I know legally you can be on one with a GRC, doesn't mean I agree).

I'm pretty chilled out about toilets tbh, but I know lots of other women have good reasons not to be, so am happy to be guided by them on that point.

Bizarre that a male/masculine looking F2M who doesn't identify or want to be female is more welcome in a woman's toilet than a feminine looking M2F who presumably has had equivalent surgery/hormones

Reality is you've probably shared a space with these types already and didn't realise it

It's not bizzare fmsfms. It's biology.

It makes my flesh creep every time someone says "Reality is you've probably shared a space with these types already and didn't realise it"

It's like an invasion of aliens trying to take over and picking the places I am most vulnerable and want to be private.

I wish they'd show some respect and piss off back to the men's where they belong.

I'm not denying that M2F and F2M are biologically male/female, I just find it odd that you would rather have a male-passing-presenting "identically male to the eye" F2M person in the toilets with you because he was born female, than an equivalent female passing-presenting identically female to the eye M2F person.

There's an element of cognitive dissonance here; "the F2M can piss with us even though he doesn't want to because he was born female, but the M2F can't"

Nope, "passing" is not a gender critical feminist criteria. It's a trans objective.

It makes my flesh creep every time someone says "Reality is you've probably shared a space with these types already and didn't realise it" Now that is silly. It really is likely that we all have shared a changing room or public loo with a transwoman. And have been doing so for decades. There hasn't been much of an issue previously as everyone played the same polite game. It worked.

It still would and women and transwomen would have continued to co exist in that polite 'let's not make a fuss' manner had it not been for the actons of TRAs. They don't want polite acceptance, they want to dominate female spaces, make decisions without female input, they will brook no discussion as their identity, their existance is not up for debate (whatever that might mean).

Trans men and women really are not the problem. TRAs, handmaidens and other allies, they are the problem... for trans men and women as well as women.

fmsfms - don't get so hung up on the pissing, or the passing. Neither are really the point!

There's an element of cognitive dissonance here; "the F2M can piss with us even though he doesn't want to because he was born female, but the M2F can't"

Neither of them want to piss in their own sex facilities. They are both equally cognitive dissonant. We are not.

Lets call a spade a spade here. TIM's want to use women's loos etc because of the feeling of validation it gives them. "Oooo look at me, a woman in a woman's space".

They don't want third spaces, they don't want unisex, they want women's, we don't want them!

Are people now saying that they will refuse to use the same single self-contained cubicle as a men/trans women? Because if so, you might find that your options are a bit limited.

Since limiting women's and girls participation in the public sphere by depriving them of any and all female only spaces is the goal I would say you are more than a little late in making this observation.

I suppose it depends what spaces we are talking about. Generally someone who has had sex change surgery or has a GRC I would have no problem with. But that doesn't mean I'd object to those pre op for that reason alone in say toilets and I think most would go unnoticed unless there was some incident. I would expect a much higher bar in prisons and womens refuges where women are at their most vulnerable from men.

The law is written so that transgender identified people, whether male or female, have the extra protection of being able to use whichever facility they choose.
Male violence is the reason often given for both female and male transgender identified persons choosing to use the spaces previously designated for females.

Now that is silly.

My genuine feelings are not 'silly'.

Men pretending to be women in spaces where I am vulnerable makes my flesh creep.

Only psychos tell other people what they should or shouldn't feel or that their boundaries are 'silly'.

Is there any reported case of transwomen being beat up in the mens room for that reason alone? I don't know any.

Only psychos tell other people what they should or shouldn't feel or that their boundaries are 'silly'. Oooh! That told me... but maybe revealed more about you

Wow, I presumed that the tampon thing was trans women with surgical vaginas, it never occurred to me that some folk would think sticking one up your bum was a feminine experience. I still doubt it's done by many. Someone mentioned sport and I feel more strongly about that than any other issue.
Prostate location is significant in these cases.
I can say more if you wish but I do not think you would wish it.

Oh! I hadn't thought that through either. Please,be assured you ahve made the right decision there, bewilderness

but maybe revealed more about you

Revealed that you think its appropriate to tell other people their boundaries are 'silly' and that I am now wise enough to recognise your 'kind' from bitter experience.

@DameFanny

So you really think people

MEN. Women are already female. We are talking about women's fear of men as a class based on structural oppression of the class of women by the class of men, using reproductive biological difference to both justify and enact (via rape) that oppression. I resist any and all attempts to obfuscate that with "people" where "men " should be used.

will change their identity to female for kicks? Go through all the paperwork for a prank?

Men have done far more extreme things to rape and abuse women. John Worboys took up taxi driving and then made himself a rape kit including prescription tranquilisers and risked his job, his taxi licence, and arrest and imprisonment in order to commit rapes.

When gender is more core to people's sense of identity than their names?

Citation needed, and by that I mean actual research papers, not Stonewall. I have always resented my sex being used to define me and what I can do. I can think of at least ten things that I regard as more important to my sense of self/identity than "woman": "musician", "gardener", "diyer", "competent", "problem solver" being the five least likely to out me if I list them here. If I woke up tomorrow with a male body, I would be more annoyed at having to buy new clothes to fit that body than I would be about the body having changed.

Permission I only responded with a slightly childish word to describe what I saw as an over reaction. You called me a psycho for that! Another over reaction??

Is that how you consider anyone who disgrees with you?