Questions from a liberal feminist to the rad fems

[daimbars]

Questions from a liberal feminist to radical feminists.

Inspired by this thread:
http://www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3244342-Has-anyone-else-just-discovered-that-they-are-a-RadFem

I have a few questions for the rad fems. I do get the concerns with self ID and the discussions around that.

The questions I have are for those who have posted comments such as:

You can’t argue with biological fact / trans women are men / being trans is a mental illness

My questions are:

Are you saying the current Gender Recognition Act should be repealed?

If so, are you suggesting withdrawing hormones from those who have already transitioned?

Do you think a fully transitioned trans woman with a GRC to ‘prove’ she is a woman (eg Nadia from Big Brother) should use the men’s loos and be in a male prison / care home / hostel?

Do you think TRAs who say things on Twitter like ‘suck my ladydick’ and 'enjoy your erasure' are representative of transgender people as a whole?

Do you feel transgender people threaten your safety and well-being as a woman? If so what personal experiences (not what you have read on Mumsnet / Twitter / Reddit) have made you reach this conclusion?

Do you think current exceptions in the Equality Act (eg it is legal to exclude trans women from competitive spots and certain job roles such as rape crisis counselling) are sufficient to protect women? https://www.equalityhumanrights.com/en/advice-and-guidance/gender-reassignment-discrimination

If your male child repeatedly told you they were female from the age of three, wore dresses, played with girls etc and were very distressed at the thought of male puberty, how would you help them?

My answers are no, no, no, no, no, yes. The last question I would struggle with the most but I would try to support my child to live the life they need to live as best I could. I guess this makes me a lib fem.

thanks for asking, interesting question.

1. I don't think I know enough about this to have a firm opinion.

2. Gosh no! What a consenting adult does to their body is not my business even though i'm not personally keen on cosmetic surgery and am very pro counselling for all things in life. I have only ever heard TRAs say feminists want trans people not to exist, I have never heard a feminist say that. Additionally, TRAs argue the notion of dysphoria is offensive, so as things are going it will be harder for dysphoric trans people to access hormones on the nhs.

3. That's a tough one. Prior to all this silencing, violence and intimidation from TRAs I would not have given a second thought to sharing spaces with the incredibly small number of fully transitioned trans women out there. But now I understand that the term "trans woman" has broadened to include people with intact penises I don't know. I don't know what the procedure involves for getting a GRC. TBH it is the people that are pushing to use women's spaces that I am most nervous of because they are exhibiting red flag behaviour with regards to my boundaries and displaying an alarming lack of empathy about the real life dangers women face from men. With prisons if the crime is sexual or violent then I would not house with women, and agree with PP that transitioning afterwards is ridiculous. I can't believe the trans community does not want to distance themselves from these people. Rape crisis and women's hostels need to be free of penises too. I cannot understand how that one isn't obvious. At the same time trans men (gosh we almost never hear about them do we?) should of course be accepted.

4. No

5. A trans woman with a penis threatens my safety no more and no less than any other man. (NAMALT). 5b) threats of violence, actual violence, catcalls, invasion of personal space, harassment, mugging, sexual assault, a million arse grabs, rape.

6. Potentially but they're simply not being upheld. I am utterly alarmed at the fact that even small, niche charities for very female sex oriented things affecting extremely vulnerable women still feel they have to write an accommodation of trans women (not trans men, who might actually need these charities) into their policies.

7. I can relate and this has relevance to my kid too. If I am still allowed a voice in a couple of years time come and ask me about it. Home is fairly colourful and gender non conforming so they fit right in here. But I am noticing how very pink and blue the rest of the world is, especially primary school sadly, so we shall see. If my child wanted a different name, clothes, persona, fine! Experimentation, exploration, all good as long as nobody's boundaries are violated. I would never let my child be lied to that they could actually change sex though. That is a physical impossibility. If they wanted cosmetic surgery, they'd need to be an adult and explore counselling first (but i'd say that to any loved one considering cosmetic surgery).

I do consider myself a radical feminist but i note that our answers aren't so very different.

I think it was you on another thread who said something about rad fems agreeing with conservatives? There's a really helpful 3 circle infographic I'm hoping somebody will post again. It sets out feminist, religious conservative, and TRA views and where they do and do not intersect. I'm politically very left and find this to be perfectly consistent with my views on all things TRA. My personal, current experience of somebody who is considering being trans is that they have a religious conservative background and it is more acceptable in their family for them to be trans than it is for them to be gay (they are same sex attracted).

Men claiming to be the main character in the story of every woman's life year after year, decade after decade, still has not succeeded in making it so.

Men claiming to be the main character in the story of every woman's life year after year, decade after decade, still has not succeeded in making it so.

Ooh love that BeWi. I might have to steal that phrase from you.

@SupermatchGame you've rather over extended what was meant to be a very limited example of a belief that I don't hold.

Of course I might end up in conflict with a Buddhist if they were attempting to force me as an atheist to behave as if reincarnation was provable truth. Which is a more appropriate comparison to the list you gave.

This is a bit OT too.
One of the things that really ticks me off about this denying their existence accusation from transgender advocates is that it is pure projection. They advocate the transgendering of Gays and Lesbians and send them death threats for saying they would not "date" them.

Look at what the transgender advocacy organizations are teaching children in school. Sexual orientation as a gender identity on the spectrum.
How can this not be ringing alarm bells in the minds of every person who has ever met a child?

If so, are you suggesting withdrawing hormones from those who have already transitioned?

What would that do? They’re women, no?

But reincarnation is a concept. It isn't a personal characteristic of a person. Sex (or gender) and how we respond to it affects so many aspects of our language and behaviour every day, in almost every domain of life.

So what about my analogy SupermatchGame? In my head I'm young. In reality I am stolidly middle aged and people treat me accordingly.

"The language we use varies in response to the sex of a person we interact with or talk about."

This, of course, is actually an acceptance of the social aspect of gender -- that we do treat people differently based on what we can infer about their sex. That inference may be inaccurate, but that doesn't invalidate the root of it which is that some things are appropriately distinguished by sex. Like sanitary facilities, changing rooms, intimate medical treatment and care, and choice of sexual partner..............

Don't confuse the actuality with the signal.

But peoples beliefs about sex/gender are just that, beliefs. Which of course they can believe what they like. The issue comes when the world has to reshape to fit their beliefs.

Sex (or gender) and how we respond to it affects so many aspects of our language and behaviour every day, in almost every domain of life.

Stop conflating sex and gender

Once again, it feels like rad fem positions are misrepresented or at least misunderstood and given poor intentions. So my answers:

Are you saying the current Gender Recognition Act should be repealed?
No, but clearly it needs to be reviewed and this should be done sensitively, based on evidence and by consulting all affected groups. The utter refusal by trans activists and shouts of transphobia at feminists who even ask questions about how it works is deeply misogynistic.

If so, are you suggesting withdrawing hormones from those who have already transitioned?
No, and I don't know anyone who is. Again, this is not what radfems are concerned about. The problem is the increasing assumption that hormones will fix dysphoria, children taking them without adequate research or understanding long term effects and without suitable therapy or time taken to ensure that it's the right choice for that child. And again, anyone who raised concerns being labelled a TERF and getting abuse.

Do you think a fully transitioned trans woman with a GRC to ‘prove’ she is a woman (eg Nadia from Big Brother) should use the men’s loos and be in a male prison / care home / hostel?
Again, missing the point.
I think it should be the same way it is now. That whether they should be in female prisons, refuges or hostels depends on the discretion of those who run them, deciding on a case by case basis. But again, not the issue. The problem is that self-id means that anyone - trans or not - can id as a woman to access this things, and the current lot of trans activists are wanting to legislate to make refusing anyone who then ids as a woman a hate crime.
No one is bothered by GRC trans women using the loo like they have been for years.

Do you think TRAs who say things on Twitter like ‘suck my ladydick’ and 'enjoy your erasure' are representative of transgender people as a whole?
No, but they're clearly running the show. The people who say this are the same ones given newspaper columns and with thousand of YouTube followers. And they're the ones encouraging violence and abuse of any women who speak up.

Do you feel transgender people threaten your safety and well-being as a woman? If so what personal experiences (not what you have read on Mumsnet / Twitter / Reddit) have made you reach this conclusion?
No, but in the same way that #notallmen are like the man who raped me. However, they are increasingly contributing to women's voices being silenced. This is a massive problem.

Do you think current exceptions in the Equality Act (eg it is legal to exclude trans women from competitive spots and certain job roles such as rape crisis counselling) are sufficient to protect women?www.equalityhumanrights.com/en/advice-and-guidance/gender-reassignment-discrimination
Same as the question on hostels. Right now they're not even being used.

If your male child repeatedly told you they were female from the age of three, wore dresses, played with girls etc and were very distressed at the thought of male puberty, how would you help them?
I have a son and I would be more than happy for him to wear dresses or take a female name or whatever was authentic or natural for him. I would however be extremely resistant to him taking medication at a young age which has not had sufficient research into the long term effects, and initial indications show can leave very serious side effects. I would also expect him to respect girls privacy, feeling and spaces. If as an adult, he made an informed and considered decision to transition, I would support it 100%.

Again, these are not the things radfems are talking about: its about the safety of women and girls in vulnerable spaces, ensuring hormones are prescribed only where necessary with particular caution for children, concerns about the potential for abuse via self ID.
For me, the fact that radfems are getting such incredible abuse for this and it being framed as transphobia tells me that there is a massive problem with misogyny in the trans movement.
Trans activists are throwing everyone under the bus - women and trans alike.

My focus is women's rights because I am a feminist. I am tired of these transgender advocacy threads on a women's rights forum.

Ditto. Pointless exercise with question-framing designed to set women on the back foot.

I'm on the front foot, which means being interested in what's good for women and girls.

Are you saying the current Gender Recognition Act should be repealed?

I’m on the fence about this. Maybe it should be replaced or updated to ensure that women’s sex based protections are not compromised. I think “women” and “men” should be legally defined by biology. I think that medical gatekeeping is necessary, particularly in the case of young people. I don’t think people should be discriminated against for failure to conform to gender stereotypes.

If so, are you suggesting withdrawing hormones from those who have already transitioned?

WTAF? I have NEVER, EVER seen any feminist, radical or otherwise, suggest this. Many gender critical people object giving children puberty blockers or cross-sex hormones before adulthood, but I’ve never seen one advocate for denying adult trans people hormones!

Do you think a fully transitioned trans woman with a GRC to ‘prove’ she is a woman (eg Nadia from Big Brother) should use the men’s loos and be in a male prison / care home / hostel?

No.

Do you think TRAs who say things on Twitter like ‘suck my ladydick’ and 'enjoy your erasure' are representative of transgender people as a whole?

Well, I can only speak for the one transwoman I know in real life and the ones who post here. They all seem pretty grossed out by the gobshites on Twitter. The problem is that the TRAs are the ones shouting the loudest, and are the most visible. They’re also the ones who only need a pack of cleansing wipes and a change of clothes to “detransition” so they have the least at stake when this all inevitably blows up in their faces. It’ll be transsexuals, transed kids who will grow up to regret listening to these creeps after they’ve sacrificed healthy bodies for a deeply sexist ideology, and women that will have to deal with the fall out.

I honestly think that in 20 years, today’s trans movement will be looked at as a weird youth subculture like punk or goth, which 90% of the participants will have “grown out of” assuming they haven’t transitioned in childhood. The only difference is that it hasn’t come about through music or art. The trans activists only make fucking headaches.

Do you feel transgender people threaten your safety and well-being as a woman? If so what personal experiences (not what you have read on Mumsnet / Twitter / Reddit) have made you reach this conclusion?

I believe men have threatened my well being and I think that predatory and fetishistic men will be very happy with Self ID as it gives them a “legitimate” reason to invade women’s spaces. The problem isn’t transsexuals- it’s the people who come in after them.

Do you think current exceptions in the Equality Act (eg it is legal to exclude trans women from competitive spots and certain job roles such as rape crisis counselling) are sufficient to protect women? www.equalityhumanrights.com/en/advice-and-guidance/gender-reassignment-discrimination

No, I don’t. The entire system is rigged against us from the moment we come out of our mothers.

If your male child repeatedly told you they were female from the age of three, wore dresses, played with girls etc and were very distressed at the thought of male puberty, how would you help them?

Well I wouldn’t be castrating him, for starters.

If my boy wanted to wear dresses and play with dolls I’d let him- and I’d tell him that it’s absolutely fine for boys to do that. It just means he’s a boy that likes dresses and dolls. Gender non-conforming children are statistically more likely to grow up to be gay adults and I’d be fine with that.

I most certainly would not be entertaining the fantasy that he’s really a girl: it is both sexist and a massive fucking lie that will set him up for a life of medical interventions and permanent sterility. Three is not the age you figure out your identity. Three year olds can insist to you they’re really a dog, or Iron Man. It doesn’t make it true.

If your male child repeatedly told you they were female from the age of three, wore dresses, played with girls etc and were very distressed at the thought of male puberty, how would you help them?

He did. Not to the extent that used to be required to be taken seriously by a gender clinic, but he did all of those things, and had the piss taken out of him royally by other boys for it.

When it became intolerable aged around 11-12, we consulted CAMHS; changed his school; found him a drama group; encouraged him to act and write and dance and sing; and indulged his preference for bright, interesting non-macho clothes, though not traditionally girls' clothes.

Admittedly he looked like Austin Powers quite a bit of the time in his teens, but he came through it unscathed (and with some fab angsty material for his latest folk song).

In my head I'm young. In reality I am stolidly middle aged and people treat me accordingly.

I think that describes most of us. Do we ever get old in the head?

I don't think there's any evidence of a medical condition where you can't function because you're not being recognised as a different age to what you are.

The invisibility of middle age is a thing, but it's not a diagnosable and treatable medical condition. (Maybe in 500 years like in Altered Carbon).

But peoples beliefs about sex/gender are just that, beliefs. Which of course they can believe what they like. The issue comes when the world has to reshape to fit their beliefs.

There is more evidence for gender dysphoria and it's treatment than there is for Buddhism. And I say that as a dabbler in Buddhist philosophy.

OP - what answers did you think rad fems would give to your list of questions? Why did you think that rad fems might, for instance, advocate withdrawing hormone treatment from people already receiving it? I'm genuinely confused, unless you think that rad fems are all just nasty, bigotted, bitter women who don't want anyone to be happy

Olennas I didn't know what the answers would be which is why I asked.

When I first read some of the threads on feminism chat I got the impression that rad fems reject the notion of being transgender and had an irrational fear of trans people. I now realise there are more complex issues.

Thank you everyone for responding it has been enlightening.

@SupermatchGame

I don't have to validate your belief in Buddism with the use of your preferred pronouns. That is enforcing YOUR beliefs onto ME. That's wrong. How can we be a tolerant, multi-cultural society when we only accept one belief system about gender. One which 99% of all other cultures in society don't really believe in? You can loose your job over things like this. That's not inclusive that's fascist.

@daimbars If you want to learn more might I suggest some useful threads? I've learnt so much from these, they're full of really interesting information and conversations.

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3175252-A-trans-resource-thread

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3241510-Cotton-ceiling

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3199030-What-do-you-say-when-people-say-that-Canada-Denmark-Ireland-Argentina-and-Malta-all-have-much-easier-ways-of-getting-a-GRC-and-there-appears-to-be-no-issue

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3234504-What-made-you-a-feminist

Stop conflating sex and gender

I'm not DJLippy. Are you an actual DJ?

I meant sex as in sexed body and gender as in 'sexed presentation'. Or signal as SomeDyke would say. And/ or sexed presentation as in gender understood by most people. 99% of the population are not total gender abolitionists.

Do you remember the scene in the film Beaches where Bette Midler Says "Enough about me, what do you think about me"?

That is what all these JAQ off threads are beginning to remind me of.

Thanks DJLippy I'll take a look. I must say I was a little intimidated to post on these boards so thanks for being welcoming to a liberal fem.

99% of the population don't believe women have penis'. If you 'read' as a man people are polite and use preferred pronouns but they're just being nice - they don't really believe men can become women. That's not bigotry that's reality. The emperor has no clothes....