Questions from a liberal feminist to the rad fems

[daimbars]

Questions from a liberal feminist to radical feminists.

Inspired by this thread:
http://www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3244342-Has-anyone-else-just-discovered-that-they-are-a-RadFem

I have a few questions for the rad fems. I do get the concerns with self ID and the discussions around that.

The questions I have are for those who have posted comments such as:

You can’t argue with biological fact / trans women are men / being trans is a mental illness

My questions are:

Are you saying the current Gender Recognition Act should be repealed?

If so, are you suggesting withdrawing hormones from those who have already transitioned?

Do you think a fully transitioned trans woman with a GRC to ‘prove’ she is a woman (eg Nadia from Big Brother) should use the men’s loos and be in a male prison / care home / hostel?

Do you think TRAs who say things on Twitter like ‘suck my ladydick’ and 'enjoy your erasure' are representative of transgender people as a whole?

Do you feel transgender people threaten your safety and well-being as a woman? If so what personal experiences (not what you have read on Mumsnet / Twitter / Reddit) have made you reach this conclusion?

Do you think current exceptions in the Equality Act (eg it is legal to exclude trans women from competitive spots and certain job roles such as rape crisis counselling) are sufficient to protect women? https://www.equalityhumanrights.com/en/advice-and-guidance/gender-reassignment-discrimination

If your male child repeatedly told you they were female from the age of three, wore dresses, played with girls etc and were very distressed at the thought of male puberty, how would you help them?

My answers are no, no, no, no, no, yes. The last question I would struggle with the most but I would try to support my child to live the life they need to live as best I could. I guess this makes me a lib fem.

As supermatch says, transgender women who have transitioned are currently legally allowed in female only spaces which is why I am asking these questions. I realise there are concerns about the proposed self ID law but interested in opinions on the law as it stands now.

No, No, No, No, Some, Yes.

('Some' are those nutters on SM who made death threats against me, threatened me with rape and told me I was homophobic for saying that Lesbians do not want dicks. Those men scared me and made me feel unsafe).

The final question: I wouldn't 'help' them. I would support them with kind words, counselling & love but there would be no doctors appts, no puberty blockers, no hormones and so on. If they still wanted to trans as an adult I couldn't stop them, but I wouldn't fund or facilitate it. They would still be my child and I would love them till the end of the Earth, but I wouldn't help them do anything to their bodies that was not reversible.

I am not 'phobic' about trans people. They don't scare me. I accept their existence and can sympathise with them for the way they feel.

Peak trans came for me when I read the for the first time a Transwoman call themselves a lesbian. Then again when a Transwoman beat the crap out of a woman in MMA. Then again with a Transwoman in a Woman's Aid Shelter meaning the women moved out. Nothing to do with 'all' trans people - I think Hope Lye is ace, I like Debbie &
Miranda and a number of other transwomen. I don't know any transmen, but I'm sure there are decent ones out there.

I'm a RadFem. And a proud PERF.
The "radical" in radical feminism means "root", not "extreme", because radical feminism regards patriarchy as the root cause of the oppression of women by men. And I'm a PERF because my feminism is penis exclusionary.

This may be impractical at the moment due to male violence so

Lol. So let's re-evaluate when the male violence problem has been solved? Like in 4000 years time.

the Transwomen are women mantra is leading to single sex spaces (both literal (eg prisons) and metaphorical ( eg sports)) become mixed

By mixed do you mean contaminated?

You can’t argue with biological fact / trans women are men / being trans is a mental illness

Statements like this seem very intolerant, esp as people remember when homosexuality was considered a mental illness. However, gender dysphoria is a mental illness. Nobody is born in the wrong body and it's physically impossible to change sex. Hormones and surgery can relieve the symptoms of this condition but this is all they do. I think that 'trans' should be a term limited to these people - who really do suffer tremendously.

The 'trans-umberlla' however includes so many identities that this conception of a transexual (i.e. Nadia from big brother) is being replaced with the idea that Eddie Izzard is also a woman.

Here is the stonewall definition of trans

An umbrella term to describe people whose gender is not the same as, or does not sit comfortably with, the sex they were assigned at birth.
Trans people may describe themselves using one or more of a wide variety of terms, including (but not limited to) transgender, transsexual, gender-queer (GQ), gender-fluid, non-binary, gender-variant, crossdresser, denderless, agender, nongender, third gender, two-spirit, bi-gender, trans man, trans woman,trans masculine, trans feminine and neutrois.

See this transexual Rose of Dawn explaining her problems with this concept. I can't speak for most people but I think the majority of the people who post on this forum would agree with most of the points Dawn raises.

I myself fall into this broad based definition because my gender is not the same as, or does not sit comfortably with, the sex they were assigned at birth. As a kid I had short hair, boys clothes, all my friends were boys. My mother was supportive however and I eventually 'grew' out of it into a perfectly well adjusted bisexual woman. In 80% of cases this is what happens. Many gay (and straight) children have a gender non-conforming childhood. If I had somebody coming into school and 'educating' me about this thing called transgender and how I could literally become a man I probably would have been thrilled! It's a lie. You can't change sex. Children do not have the mental capacity to make such a decision. Many people (myself included) fear that this is a form of social eugenics where the next generation of gay kids will be left infertile. Is this a form of 21st century conversion therapy? It would be nice if we were allowed to discuss this.

I myself have had some very upsetting experiences on twitter with many self identified women. I could just tell they weren't women because they still behaved like men. I had creepy come on's by someone who kept talking about his 'girl cock' and was piled on my a bunch of MRA types by another trans woman. The thought of these self described 'lesbians' let loose on the gay village filled me with such concern for young lesbian's, just coming out trying to find their community. Then I heard about the 'Cotton-Celing.' It's truly horrific.

www.feministcurrent.com/2017/01/13/todays-shameless-lesbians-wont-queered/

Sorry if this is rambling and doesn't address your points specifically but I think it gives a good reflection of many of the debates that occur on these threads.

Jeez louise PeakPants, in my head I'm 25. When people treat me like a hairy chinned middle aged lady are they denying my existence?

I often get the impression on here that rad fems refuse the acknowledge the existence and experience of being trans but maybe that isn't so.

For goodness sakes.

There are people with genuine dysphoria
There are people who get their rocks off dressing as women
There are people who are genuinely confused due to the messages they are getting
There are people who tag onto any and all campaigns esp if it means having a pop at women
There are people who are genuinely evil
There are people that are lovely
There are people that will take advantage of any way of accessing female spaces
There are people that use any methods to get female spaces closed down
There are people that really do need to escape from partners and who need a safe space

The problem is, that we have no idea how to sort these people now as the mere mention of men in women's spaces gets an abusive pile on.

Nobody is going to repeal any GRA because of the death threats they will receive.

The way forward is to work out some way of keeping potential male attackers out of safe spaces, and how to campaign to get trans spaces sorted without endangering women and girls.

Until the government sits down and talk to women AND trans groups about potential ways forward, none of this is going to be resolved.

At the moment, women cannot even meet up to talk about it without getting blocked, attacked, harassed and risk losing their jobs and potentially homes. So it is kind of hard to suggest peaceful ways forward when up against this time after time.

@PeakPants trans ideology requires us all to accept that it is possible to change sex, and that it is possible to have a brain that is the "wrong sex" for the rest of the body. If we don't accept that, then we are told that we are erasing the existence of trans people.

But surely it can be seen that this is a matter of belief. I'm not required to believe everything that other people believe, so why is this different? The fact that I don't believe in reincarnation doesn't erase the existence of Buddhists.

I don't think a world without stereotypes is going to help someone come to terms with what they believe to be the "wrong" sexed body though is it.

Possibly not. But lying to them and saying either that they are already a member of the opposite sex or that if they do X Y and Z they will become a member of the opposite sex is not that clever a strategy either.

Lol. So let's re-evaluate when the male violence problem has been solved? Like in 4000 years time

Well yes. If the male sex as a group wasn't so problematic towards women then we wouldn't need sex segregated spaces so much for dignity and privacy. This isn't the case at the moment so yes we need segregated prisons etc. HTH

By mixed do you mean contaminated?
No, I mean as in mixed sex which is blindingly obvious from the context

Are you saying the current Gender Recognition Act should be repealed?

Yes

If so, are you suggesting withdrawing hormones from those who have already transitioned?

Absolutely not. A fully transitioned person no longer produces their own so need HRT.

Do you think a fully transitioned trans woman with a GRC to ‘prove’ she is a woman (eg Nadia from Big Brother) should use the men’s loos and be in a male prison / care home / hostel?

Loos they have been using forever. Prison's need a block for vulnerable prisoners, Trans inmates could go in there. Care homes are usually mixed. Hostels should be segregated by sex and trans people should think about natal sex needs over their own wants.

Do you think TRAs who say things on Twitter like ‘suck my ladydick’ and 'enjoy your erasure' are representative of transgender people as a whole?

They certainly represent TRA but trans in general? Probably not.

Do you feel transgender people threaten your safety and well-being as a woman? If so what personal experiences (not what you have read on Mumsnet / Twitter / Reddit) have made you reach this conclusion?

Newspaper reports of what has happened to women in shared spaces.

Do you think current exceptions in the Equality Act (eg it is legal to exclude trans women from competitive spots and certain job roles such as rape crisis counselling) are sufficient to protect women? www.equalityhumanrights.com/en/advice-and-guidance/gender-reassignment-discrimination

No, they can be interpreted by any company/service provider at will.

If your male child repeatedly told you they were female from the age of three, wore dresses, played with girls etc and were very distressed at the thought of male puberty, how would you help them?

By letting them dress in what they wanted and play with what they wanted and not making a song and dance about it.

Interesting thread, I'm sorry to derail it slightly, but a serious point and a particular bug-bear of mine has popped up..

*Do you think TRAs who say things on Twitter like ‘suck my ladydick’ and 'enjoy your erasure' are representative of transgender people as a whole?

No, but unfortunately they seem to be the ones who are being invited to speak to people with the power to change things, and who get invited to contribute on TV/radio/media etc.*

Can anyone refer me to any instance where a trans person invited onto media such as Paris, Shon, Jane Fae, Monroe, Roz Kaveny, etc etc has said anything remotely similar to the above?

I often get the impression on here that rad fems refuse the acknowledge the existence and experience of being trans but maybe that isn't so.
I’ve been on MN for 10 years I’ve never seen anyone deny transgender people’s existence or experiences. Of course transgender people exist plenty of them make their existence felt sure enough and experience their lives as they do. It doesn’t make a transwoman’s experience the same as a woman’s experience though.

So when you 'peak trans' it's not against all trans people? As that is how it comes across.
OP you’re starting to sound disingenous, so I’m going to assume you just haven’t been reading gender critical viewpoints for very long. “Peak trans” is not about being “against” anybody - it’s shorthand for the scales falling from your eyes and realising that blindly accepting “transwomen are women” is a regressive ideology which upholds gender stereotypes, harms women and all gender non-conforming people and generally just does not fit with everything feminism has fought, and continues to fight for.

OP you also seem to be labouring under the impression that liberal feminism = accepting transgenderism and radical feminism = gender critical, which isn’t strictly the case, liberal and radical do not mean what you think they mean. Trans activists just use “radfem” as a (in their minds) derogatory term toward gender critical women, and because it makes their TERF anacronym scan nicely. Liberal doesn’t mean nicey nicey and radical doesn’t mean angry shouty.

part 1 of 3 which first helped me understand the difference between liberal vs radical. You may find you are radical after all

crispbuttyfan, what Shon 'enjoy your erasure' Fay? Nope, never said anything like that. No siree.

Jane 'domestic violence gone wrong' Fae?

Yeah, you can just see how well they identify with women

Bergdorf has lost TWO jobs due to offensive mouthing off on social meeja (ok resigned from one but really, was that jumped before being pushed)

so just shon saying enjoy your erasure, is the only example of a trans woman with access to media platforms saying something inflammatory? Thats it? You do know Shon is attacked mercilessly on here and by transphobes, but that merits it?

I'm not exactly a Radfem (Socialist Feminist here) but I lean that way.

Are you saying the current Gender Recognition Act should be repealed?

Yes. I've read the GRA and its a hot mess. There's bits where "gender" and "sex" are used interchangably for the same concept in the same sentence.
Neither trans people nor cis women are served particularly well by it and its been largely superseeded by the Equalities Act.

If so, are you suggesting withdrawing hormones from those who have already transitioned?

The GRA doesn't really have anyuthing to do with the provision of hormones which is a medical deicsion for someones doctor to make. So no.

Do you think a fully transitioned trans woman with a GRC to ‘prove’ she is a woman (eg Nadia from Big Brother) should use the men’s loos and be in a male prison / care home / hostel?

The GRA makes a distinction between trans people with a GRC and those without-and did allow people with a certifiate to gain access to spaces associatied with their new gender, where those who didn't have a GRC were excluded.
I do find this irrational because its just a piece of paper- theres no substantial difference between someone who's gone to the trouble of getting a certificate and someone who hasn't.
The Equalities Act allows transgender people into spaces associated with their adopted gender with some exemptions for if the exclusion of trans people can be shown to be proprtionate to a legitimate aim.
I think this is right- and allows the issue to be dealt with on a case by case basis.
I'd like the exemptions to be strengthened and clarified (maybe some more detailed guidance) because at the moment many organisations are not making use of them even where this would be appropriate.

Do you think TRAs who say things on Twitter like ‘suck my ladydick’ and 'enjoy your erasure' are representative of transgender people as a whole?

No. But I think transactivism has an internal culture that excuses and sometimes encourages this behaviour and that they need to get their house in order.

Do you feel transgender people threaten your safety and well-being as a woman? If so what personal experiences (not what you have read on Mumsnet / Twitter / Reddit) have made you reach this conclusion?

Not in general no. But then I don't feel threatened by the majority of cis men either. And yet I still value womens space.

Do you think current exceptions in the Equality Act (eg it is legal to exclude trans women from competitive spots and certain job roles such as rape crisis counselling) are sufficient to protect women? www.equalityhumanrights.com/en/advice-and-guidance/gender-reassignment-discrimination

I think they are in theory but not in practice. People are not clear that the exemptions exist and there isn't enough case law to be sure of how they would work in practice. The cost of litigation would be potentially service closing for many organisations so the exemptions arent being used even where they would be appropriate.

If your male child repeatedly told you they were female from the age of three, wore dresses, played with girls etc and were very distressed at the thought of male puberty, how would you help them?

Thats a hard question. Even psychologists in the field don't know the answer to this one. My feeling is that the gender affirming approach is beginning to be questioned by psychologists. My son is 6 now and I suspect that by the time he hits puberty the pendulum will have swung back a ways.

My focus is women's rights because I am a feminist.
I am tired of these transgender advocacy threads on a women's rights forum.
This are you suggesting withdrawing hormones from those who have already transitioned? is an issue that needs to be asked of those who are promoting self ID.

Transgender advocates have bullied the medical profession into reclassifying gender dysphoria from a mental illness to a medical condition. Transgender advocates are arguing that dysphoria is not necessary to identify as transgender.

Now ask yourself, or better yet ask a transgender advocate, what is going to happen when someone asks for medical treatment for their identity?
Why do you suppose transsexuals are opposed to Self ID amendments to the GRA and Equality Act.

crispbutty You asked to be referred to any instance, you’ve been referred to three already, and no one has endorsed merciless attacking of anyone, stop strawmanning, and stop derailing the thread.

WTGLWGH, women!

Currently fully transitioned transwomen are generally welcomed in women-only spaces as a courtesy on an honour system.

No they are not. This is your fictional honour system. They are legally entitled to use most women-only spaces by law. There are certain situations where they may be excluded if necessary but this is a minority

Umm... there's no law keeping men out of women's loos or women's changing rooms because these are customs not law.

The honour system means we turn a blind eye rather than say "oi you're in the wrong loo" etc. There's no law to uphold this system there is simply an honour/cultural system.
Women only book groups or women only knitting groups it's the honour system not law that keeps these spaces women only.

@crispbuttyfan is getting a bit of a reputation for plopping onto these threads, stating the same over and over again, but not recognising the replies.

As John Ozimek, Jane Fae campaigned against making it illegal to posses extreme pornographic images, that is images of acts which result in or are likely to result in serious injury to a person's anus, breasts or genitals; bestiality; or necrophilia.

So images of abuse, basically.

I'm not sure the word 'person' is fit for Jane, let alone 'woman'.

But @crispbuttyfan is very welcome, because one day they might understand, get it.

"Can anyone refer me to any instance where a trans person invited onto media........."
And let's not forget the lovely Karen Jones, a killer and attempted rapist, who was invited to speak at the House of Lords.............

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-5440153/Trans-convict-invited-speak-House-Lords.html

Okay, the House of Lords isn't exactly media, but an invitation that is potentially influential, and certainly something that the person invited was quite proud of.

The fact that I don't believe in reincarnation doesn't erase the existence of Buddhists.

But Buddhists don't require anything of you. Buddhism isn't something common to all humans. Sex is.

The language we use varies in response to the sex of a person we interact with or talk about.

You don't tell Buddhists to get out of the toilet.
You don't deny Buddhists access to appropriate medical treatment.
You don't object to Buddhists accessing women only short lists if they are legally female.
You don't disrespect and humiliate Buddhists by misgendering them.