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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Questions from a liberal feminist to the rad fems

541 replies

daimbars · 10/05/2018 18:15

Questions from a liberal feminist to radical feminists.

Inspired by this thread:
http://www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3244342-Has-anyone-else-just-discovered-that-they-are-a-RadFem

I have a few questions for the rad fems. I do get the concerns with self ID and the discussions around that.

The questions I have are for those who have posted comments such as:

You can’t argue with biological fact / trans women are men / being trans is a mental illness

My questions are:

Are you saying the current Gender Recognition Act should be repealed?

If so, are you suggesting withdrawing hormones from those who have already transitioned?

Do you think a fully transitioned trans woman with a GRC to ‘prove’ she is a woman (eg Nadia from Big Brother) should use the men’s loos and be in a male prison / care home / hostel?

Do you think TRAs who say things on Twitter like ‘suck my ladydick’ and 'enjoy your erasure' are representative of transgender people as a whole?

Do you feel transgender people threaten your safety and well-being as a woman? If so what personal experiences (not what you have read on Mumsnet / Twitter / Reddit) have made you reach this conclusion?

Do you think current exceptions in the Equality Act (eg it is legal to exclude trans women from competitive spots and certain job roles such as rape crisis counselling) are sufficient to protect women? https://www.equalityhumanrights.com/en/advice-and-guidance/gender-reassignment-discrimination

If your male child repeatedly told you they were female from the age of three, wore dresses, played with girls etc and were very distressed at the thought of male puberty, how would you help them?

My answers are no, no, no, no, no, yes. The last question I would struggle with the most but I would try to support my child to live the life they need to live as best I could. I guess this makes me a lib fem.

OP posts:
WickedLazy · 10/05/2018 23:08

"Do you feel transgender people threaten your safety and well-being as a woman?"

I think men in general do. Strange men for sure, if I'm walking home alone at night, I have my guard up for odd men, other women are often a welcome sight if it's foggy or silent and eerie or whatever. But then they say now the men you know are the ones to watch, more women are raped by men they know than otherwise.

It follows men dressed as women, unless gay (and they could say they are when they aren't), pose the same risks. Too many men with autogynephilia and similar fetish driven motives, are being put in the same category as gay men with body dysmorphia, or those who just get on with it and use the disabled toilet where possible/ are law abidding so will never go to jail etc.

RatRolyPoly · 10/05/2018 23:09

Interesting that on one hand Rat says that women should accept unisex toilets and enforced lack of privacy regarding periods etc but that transgender people should be able to hide their biological identity.

Actually Elle I'd just written exactly that of myself, saying that I had changed my opinion somewhat because of that exact apparent hypocrisy. Then my phone died.

Of course the difference is that one is me as a woman discussing with other women how we should present our own reality, and the other is seeking to impose it on a group outside of one's own... so I say my view is only somewhat changed. But changed it is.

PermissionToSpeakSir · 10/05/2018 23:11

you cannot possibly think that we have a right to know someone's gender reassignment status all the bloody time, such as when they're stacking shelves in Tesco, can you?

Knowing someone sex is relevant in many situations and could even be when stacking shelves in Tesco. For example, their co-workers might not want to share changing/toilet facilities with someone of their sex.

strongerthan · 10/05/2018 23:11

I'm defo a rad feminist

RatRolyPoly · 10/05/2018 23:16

Shouldn't people who've changed genders be open and proud about their identity? If they hide it away and want to be private about it, it doesn't help everyone understand and become more tolerant of transgender people.

Right, now to try to remember the reply I was writing to this before my phone died!

So yeah, they're just people Assassinated, they're not responsible for flying the flag for their community. And if their community want to encourage them to do that, well that's on them, but surely it's not for us as outsiders to impose of them the correct way to live with that experience?

For a lot of them their transition will have been very emotional, often very medical, very intimate and from what I can gather a good many transpeople don't want to open that box again once it's shut. And I think I understand.

I mean I've survived an eating disorder which nearly killed me. Don't get me wrong, I'm proud as fuck of myself, but there is no way my mental health could support being confronted by that all.the.time, even in situations when it absolutely did not matter to anyone at all. In the right situation I'll talk about it, but would I want my employer to know? God, no! Plus it was years ago. Others may feel differently; others may be the types to be ambassadors for that experience. Not me.

strongerthan · 10/05/2018 23:16

Not helpful. But I now ID as a rad feminist

AssassinatedBeauty · 10/05/2018 23:21

No, they should definitely not hide away and be private. How will transgender rights ever make progress if people hide away and keep things private like this?

(Btw, I'm not actually being serious with this, you can probably tell).

RatRolyPoly · 10/05/2018 23:25

Assassinated if you were transgender and talking to your fellow transpeople about how best to enact change for the good of your community, that might be a valid statement.

And if I were a man telling women how I thought they should deal with their periods, I'd be doing what you were doing in your first response to me, saying trans people should fly the flag.

PermissionToSpeakSir · 10/05/2018 23:25

I mean I've survived an eating disorder which nearly killed me. Don't get me wrong, I'm proud as fuck of myself,

So you overcame your body dysphoria without making a lifelong 'transition' to anything. You came back to reality and to health.

but there is no way my mental health could support being confronted by that all.the.time,

Of course, a dark period in your life.

In the right situation I'll talk about it, but would I want my employer to know? God, no! Plus it was years ago.

It is an episode you no longer live, it has passed, there is no one who needs to know. However people who 'trans' are still living it, it is not in the past. In order to live honestly in the world it is important to be open about it so that other people can make appropriate adjustments to their behaviour and put up appropriate boundaries.

Others may feel differently; others may be the types to be ambassadors for that experience. Not me.

I agree that people don't need to be ambassadors, but they should aspire to living an authentic, honest life, not a deceptive, dishonest one. Other people could be traumatised by being deceived, so it is incumbent upon them to be open and honest.

Ereshkigal · 10/05/2018 23:25

Interesting that on one hand Rat says that women should accept unisex toilets and enforced lack of privacy regarding periods etc but that transgender people should be able to hide their biological identity.

Isn't it?

AssassinatedBeauty · 10/05/2018 23:27

Ah ok, because you're a women you can tell other women they cannot/should not have privacy.

PermissionToSpeakSir · 10/05/2018 23:29

Isn't it?

Well - you know women and our pesky boundaries have to be got around some how.

Ereshkigal · 10/05/2018 23:31

Just like other women could tell me I was responsible for my rape and domestic abuse and to get over it.

HouseMouseQueen · 10/05/2018 23:32

Here are my answers and I do consider myself a radical feminist who lives in the material/physical world where my sex class is oppressed because of it.

Are you saying the current Gender Recognition Act should be repealed?

I think all gender identity laws that trump sex based protections (and they usually do) need to be repealed.

If so, are you suggesting withdrawing hormones from those who have already transitioned?

I don't understand why you are asking this question.

Do you think a fully transitioned trans woman with a GRC to ‘prove’ she is a woman (eg Nadia from Big Brother) should use the men’s loos and be in a male prison / care home / hostel?

I think he should lobby for his own loo and not intrude on female spaces. Men's feelings should never trump women's rights to sex based spaces.

Do you think TRAs who say things on Twitter like ‘suck my ladydick’ and 'enjoy your erasure' are representative of transgender people as a whole?

Don't know and don't care. I care about women's and girls sex based protections because we fought for them and we need them. We don't live in a world where we DON'T need them.

Do you feel transgender people threaten your safety and well-being as a woman? If so what personal experiences (not what you have read on Mumsnet / Twitter / Reddit) have made you reach this conclusion?

Men should never be allowed into female only space. Feminism is by, for, and about women, not men. So, I don't care that men like this exist. I care that they are changing laws to eliminate women's and girl's rights. It's a common theme to hear these men saying radical feminists want to end their existence, which is hyperbole. We just want to retain our sex based rights.

Do you think current exceptions in the Equality Act (eg it is legal to exclude trans women from competitive spots and certain job roles such as rape crisis counselling) are sufficient to protect women? www.equalityhumanrights.com/en/advice-and-guidance/gender-reassignment-discrimination

No, because if the State recognizes gender identity as a protected characteristic, then it will clash with sex. We see that it has done precisely that.

If your male child repeatedly told you they were female from the age of three, wore dresses, played with girls etc and were very distressed at the thought of male puberty, how would you help them?

I would let him wear what he wanted and do what he wanted. This doesn't make him female. It makes him human. I wouldn't drag him to a gender clinic and sterilize him. We know that there's no long term research on what these drugs do to children and the evidence we do have points to harming them long term.

Rufustheyawningreindeer · 10/05/2018 23:37

daim

No
No
Dunno...3rd space?
No
No
I would support him to be himself

Im a feminist...im probably more rad than lib ( going by those online test thingies)

SupermatchGame · 10/05/2018 23:38

Yes it was. But that poster has an agenda to push.

Unlike yourself.

Ereshkigal · 10/05/2018 23:41

I don't disingenuously read things into posts that aren't there.

SupermatchGame · 10/05/2018 23:45

Shouldn't people who've changed genders be open and proud about their identity? If they hide it away and want to be private about it, it doesn't help everyone understand and become more tolerant of transgender people.

But not everyone who 'changed genders' identifies as trans anything. They identify as the gender they've changed to. Or sex they've changed to according to the GRA. They want to get on with life as a member of that gender as much as feasibly possible after having been treated for a medical condition.

Not everyone who has been treated for depression constantly wants to identify as someone treated for depression. They're just a person that was treated for depression. Which is something they may or may not wish to disclose to other people depending on how close they become to them.

DJLippy · 10/05/2018 23:48

But not everyone who 'changed genders' identifies as trans anything. They identify as the gender they've changed to. Or sex they've changed to according to the GRA.
Safeguarding Safeguarding Safeguarding Safeguarding Safeguarding Safeguarding Safeguarding Safeguarding Safeguarding Safeguarding Safeguarding Safeguarding Safeguarding Safeguarding Safeguarding Safeguarding Safeguarding Safeguarding Safeguarding Safeguarding Safeguarding Safeguarding Safeguarding Safeguarding Safeguarding Safeguarding Safeguarding Safeguarding Safeguarding Safeguarding Safeguarding Safeguarding Safeguarding Safeguarding Safeguarding Safeguarding Safeguarding Safeguarding Safeguarding Safeguarding

SupermatchGame · 10/05/2018 23:52

Did you just mean to post Safeguarding 40 times?
Are you ok?

Elletorro · 10/05/2018 23:53

Rat

I don’t understand how you are squaring this vis a vis transgender rights to privacy and women’s rights to privacy? Could you explain?

PermissionToSpeakSir · 10/05/2018 23:54

Are you ok?

I couldn't have said it better myself.

Maybe with the word 'boundaries' and 'consent' thrown in - all concepts that TRAs seem to be impervious to. Perhaps repetition is the only way.

AssassinatedBeauty · 10/05/2018 23:56

I'm not being serious. I think I said that already.

People should have a right to privacy, unless there is a good reason not (as others have described).

PosyFossilsShoes · 10/05/2018 23:57

Are you saying the current Gender Recognition Act should be repealed?
TBH I think it would do everyone, whatever their gender identity, a bit of a favour if it were. It was written (check hansard) with the intention of providing an option for a tiny number of transsexuals and it has not aged well as society has come to understand the difference between sex and gender.

However pragmatically I appreciate it won't be repealed. If it were repealed I would want it replaced with legislation that maintained the rights of trans people to transition. As it won't be, I support it being reformed.

If so, are you suggesting withdrawing hormones from those who have already transitioned?

Don't be frigging ridiculous.

Do you think a fully transitioned trans woman with a GRC to ‘prove’ she is a woman (eg Nadia from Big Brother) should use the men’s loos and be in a male prison / care home / hostel?

No idea who Nadia from Big Brother is. But I think someone who has transitioned and has a GRC should be able to use the women's loos and should not be compelled into male accommodation by the state. Where I differ from lib fems is in thinking that meaningful transition is different to simply changing a name.

Do you think TRAs who say things on Twitter like ‘suck my ladydick’ and 'enjoy your erasure' are representative of transgender people as a whole?
No, but I see the trans community being frightened to disown them, and I see a disproportionate influence from the extremists.

Do you feel transgender people threaten your safety and well-being as a woman? If so what personal experiences (not what you have read on Mumsnet / Twitter / Reddit) have made you reach this conclusion?

You see, this is exactly where lib fem v rad fem tends to separate.

Liberal feminists look at individuals, and civil liberties, where radical feminists look at class movements, and human rights.

It doesn't matter whether I have personally ever been threatened or attacked by a trans person. As it happens, yes I have (and seriously), before their transition. But I could counter that with well - have I ever been gladdened or validated or supported by a trans person, and as it happens, yes, frequently.

But the argument isn't some sort of gender warrior game of one-potato-two-potato.

It's this: does allowing gender identity to replace sex advantage, or disadvantage, women as a class? If the answer is disadvantage then it doesn't matter how many wonderful trans people I know or how little harm i have personally experienced.

This idea that personal identity trumps collective rights is baffling. When did liberal feminists get so right wing?

Do you think current exceptions in the Equality Act (eg it is legal to exclude trans women from competitive spots and certain job roles such as rape crisis counselling) are sufficient to protect women?
Yes, if implemented correctly. We know from the Man Friday group that many (most?) organisations are not aware of the exceptions.

If your male child repeatedly told you they were female from the age of three, wore dresses, played with girls etc and were very distressed at the thought of male puberty, how would you help them?
I would have no problem with my male child wearing dresses and playing with girls. I could probably help them through distress at the prospect of puberty by sharing my own experience of distress at the prospect of puberty. Beyond that - if necessary I'd speak to the Tavistock, if it turned out that they were actually dysphoric and needing to transition as adults I'd support them. I wouldn't be comfortable letting them do so at ten, or even sixteen, though.

PermissionToSpeakSir · 11/05/2018 00:00

Safeguarding Boundaries Consent Safeguarding Boundaries Consent
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Safeguarding Boundaries Consent Safeguarding Boundaries Consent
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Safeguarding Boundaries Consent Safeguarding Boundaries Consent
Safeguarding Boundaries Consent Safeguarding Boundaries Consent
Safeguarding Boundaries Consent Safeguarding Boundaries Consent
Safeguarding Boundaries Consent Safeguarding Boundaries Consent

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