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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Questions from a liberal feminist to the rad fems

541 replies

daimbars · 10/05/2018 18:15

Questions from a liberal feminist to radical feminists.

Inspired by this thread:
http://www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3244342-Has-anyone-else-just-discovered-that-they-are-a-RadFem

I have a few questions for the rad fems. I do get the concerns with self ID and the discussions around that.

The questions I have are for those who have posted comments such as:

You can’t argue with biological fact / trans women are men / being trans is a mental illness

My questions are:

Are you saying the current Gender Recognition Act should be repealed?

If so, are you suggesting withdrawing hormones from those who have already transitioned?

Do you think a fully transitioned trans woman with a GRC to ‘prove’ she is a woman (eg Nadia from Big Brother) should use the men’s loos and be in a male prison / care home / hostel?

Do you think TRAs who say things on Twitter like ‘suck my ladydick’ and 'enjoy your erasure' are representative of transgender people as a whole?

Do you feel transgender people threaten your safety and well-being as a woman? If so what personal experiences (not what you have read on Mumsnet / Twitter / Reddit) have made you reach this conclusion?

Do you think current exceptions in the Equality Act (eg it is legal to exclude trans women from competitive spots and certain job roles such as rape crisis counselling) are sufficient to protect women? https://www.equalityhumanrights.com/en/advice-and-guidance/gender-reassignment-discrimination

If your male child repeatedly told you they were female from the age of three, wore dresses, played with girls etc and were very distressed at the thought of male puberty, how would you help them?

My answers are no, no, no, no, no, yes. The last question I would struggle with the most but I would try to support my child to live the life they need to live as best I could. I guess this makes me a lib fem.

OP posts:
moofolk · 10/05/2018 18:30

My son was as you describe but rather than entrenching ideas of gender rules / roles I said of course you can wear dresses and play with dolls they are not girls' things they are just things.
Just as I was allowed to wear trousers and play football without having to pretend to be a boy.

Nobody as far as I know is saying that adults who have chosen to transition should stop the process, much less forcing them to. However with an ideal situation for radical feminism being the complete abolition of gender rules, we would accept anyone for who they are including effeminate men and butch women so it would render transitioning pointless.

I have been personally threatened by trans identified males and their allies but I do not think that all trans people are dangerous. Most trans people, like most other people, are just getting on with their lives. I have however been raped, by a man, who used his penis for the job. Countless women I know have been raped. All rapists have penises, it's a crucial tool for the task and so I don't think bepenised people should be welcome into single sex spaces where there are vulnerable women, like prisons.
Yes I think fully transitions trans people with a GRC should be able to use their preferred toilet, but they are not actually that sex.
I absolutely think that a person born as a boy should not be able to enter women's sports. Ever. Competitive level sport is not a human right and if a man decides that he wants to transition he will have to accept that he has disqualified himself from professional sport, it's not the end of the world.

RealityHasALiberalBias · 10/05/2018 18:34

My answers:

No

No

No (but in the case of prisons I would add the caveat that my “no” only applies to people who have fully transitioned before their sentence, and that I feel a case-by-case approach is appropriate, taking into account the nature of the crime). Also in hostels and care homes etc proof of a GRC should be required.

No

No more than any other person, on a population level (though I would think twice about attending a WPUK meeting...). My concern is with abusive men who aren’t trans gaming the system to access women and girls, not with genuine transwomen. And that the trans umbrella is way too wide - my view is that the terms transgender and transsexual should only apply to people who have gender dysphoria. Everything else is just reinforcing stereotypes.

Potentially, but they are not exercised where they could / should be, and trans activists need to respect them when they are.

My answer to your last question would be the same as yours.

I am most definitely a rad fem.

Juells · 10/05/2018 18:35

If so, are you suggesting withdrawing hormones from those who have already transitioned?

What kind of nonsensical question is that? Do you think people are mad?

RatRolyPoly · 10/05/2018 18:39

Interesting OP, I'll be keen to see some responses coming in.

FWIW though I don't think your opinions on trans issues necessarily make you a libfem. Just like I don't think being trans-exclusionary catapults anyone to radfem status.

Actually, having an opinion on trans issues - whatever that opinion may be - doesn't necessarily make someone a feminist at all; not even if they're a woman with those opinions.

There's a tad bit more to being a feminist than trans IMO.

daimbars · 10/05/2018 18:40

Thanks for the replies and moofolk I'm sorry for your bad experiences Thanks

I often get the impression on here that rad fems refuse the acknowledge the existence and experience of being trans but maybe that isn't so.

OP posts:
freezerfoodyum · 10/05/2018 18:42

I often get the impression on here that rad fems refuse the acknowledge the existence and experience of being trans but maybe that isn't

Of course we don't. Plenty of trans people are on our side you know.

SupermatchGame · 10/05/2018 18:43

we would accept anyone for who they are including effeminate men and butch women so it would render transitioning pointless.

No it wouldn't. For a lot of people medical transition is about sex, not gender.

daimbars · 10/05/2018 18:44

Plenty of trans people are on our side you know. So when you 'peak trans' it's not against all trans people? As that is how it comes across.

OP posts:
Thegirlinthefireplace · 10/05/2018 18:45

Literally every rad fem (and human as far as I can tell) acknowledges the existence of trans people. I find this the most bizarre accuasatiin that is thrown at rad gems.

Also rad fans all acknowledge that trans people have their own unique experience, but it is a trans experience not a female experience.

Hth

TheUterati · 10/05/2018 18:47

Yes

No

Yes - appropriate provision should be made within male facilities, as should be the case with any group of males vulnerable to male violence.

Yes and No. It is more the delusion and encroachment on women's rights that is most significant.

Yes and No.

No - there is ample evidence that this is not the case.

Not by lying to him and telling them that he are a girl trapped in a boy's body, or have the soul of a girl, or that he have been born into the wrong body, or that his (presumably healthy) body is wrong, and certainly not by transing him. Appropriate professional support to investigate the root of this distress and support him in finding a way to be at peace with his body and his sexuality, if it turns out that he is gay. Consistent gender critical parenting.

daimbars · 10/05/2018 18:49

Reality I would say that makes you liberal, why do you say you are rad fem?

OP posts:
PeakPants · 10/05/2018 18:49

I agree with your answers to all the questions.

I also think there is a difference between effeminate men and trans women. Their whole identity is that they do not feel male- not just that they don’t correspond to the stereotypes of what a man is but that they are not male. I don’t think removing gender stereotypes would change things for people with genuine gender dysphoria.

Oh and I think prisons should have a trans facility which avoids the debate over whether someone should be in a male or female prison. I also think moves towards gender neutral fully contained loos with sinks where possible is a good thing. Same with changing rooms- if they have lockable cubicles they can be unisex.

TheUterati · 10/05/2018 18:51

I acknowledge the existence and experiences of these men, but I do not acknowledge that 'trans' is a Real Thing that I must participate in by reifying it.

However, when I am constantly told either that they are women or even that they are transwomen (which even though it does not assert that they are women, it denies that they are men) and when my voice is constantly shut down and I am censored on the grounds that I am beyond the bounds of civilised debate, or am bigoted or am engaging in hate speech, then my willingness to show any understanding pretty much evaporates.

busyboysmum · 10/05/2018 18:53

My view is that of course trans people exist. I can't understand this denying people's existence nonsense. Makes no sense. Who denies they exist?

In my ideal world anyone would be able to present as they wished so there would be nothing to transition from or to.

Biology just is. That's the body you were born with and there should be more help for people to accept themselves. I say this about any form of cosmetic surgery TBH it's very shallow to me. And unhealthy to obsess about how you look and to have multiple surgeries.

So my answers:

Yes.
No.
No.
No.
No.
No.

All my boys have gone through gnc phases. We've allowed them to express themselves in whatever way they wanted. No restrictions. They all eventually grew out of it.

I'm not sure if I'm a rad fem however. I'm just a mum and wife and a lawyer and a feminist. And I don't think you can change your biological sex. Nor do I think we should be promoting it as a way to live except as a last resort. It's too damaging.

TheUterati · 10/05/2018 18:54

Also rad fans all acknowledge that trans people have their own unique experience, but it is a trans experience not a female experience.

I think you will find that it not the case. In the case of males, this is a MALE experience. In the case of females, this is a FEMALE experience.

RatRolyPoly · 10/05/2018 18:54

However with an ideal situation for radical feminism being the complete abolition of gender rules, we would accept anyone for who they are including effeminate men and butch women so it would render transitioning pointless.

Ummmm, liberal feminists aren't all that keen on gender stereotypes either you know. I think that pretty much applies to all feminists.

I don't think a world without stereotypes is going to help someone come to terms with what they believe to be the "wrong" sexed body though is it.

Cwenthryth · 10/05/2018 18:55

That’s a lot of questions Grin and radical feminists aren’t the Borg, so I wouldn’t seek to represent All Radical Feminism. I don’t know how you feel you can give simple yes/no answers to all of them, they are not simple questions.

Are you saying the current Gender Recognition Act should be repealed?
I don’t know. I certainly think it is very unhelpful to conflate legal recognition of gender reassignment with sex. They are not the same thing.

If so, are you suggesting withdrawing hormones from those who have already transitioned? That’s a question for individuals and their doctors isn’t it. I do think that people should continue to receive a diagnosis of gender dysphoria before being prescribed medical treatment for it on the NHS, treatment should not be available on demand funded by taxpayers. Psychological support should be much much much more easily available than it is now, although that is across the board, not just for individuals with gender identity issues.

Do you think a fully transitioned trans woman with a GRC to ‘prove’ she is a woman (eg Nadia from Big Brother) should use the men’s loos and be in a male prison / care home / hostel?
I don’t know who Nadia from Big Brother is. Currently fully transitioned transwomen are generally welcomed in women-only spaces as a courtesy on an honour system. Unless their individual behaviour is problematic they are generally accepted. That’s fine. It’s when self-trans-identified men who make little concession to transition or respect female social norms attempt to force their way into women-only spaces as a way to validate their identity, that women have a problem with it. The problem here is the trans umbrella encompassing all non-gender-conforming people and granting the same rights as transsexuals or those with crippling gender dysphoria, to fetishists and sexual predators, and if women are not permitted to differentiate, then none would be welcome quite frankly.

Do you think TRAs who say things on Twitter like ‘suck my ladydick’ and 'enjoy your erasure' are representative of transgender people as a whole?
I think they certainly seek to be, but I doubt they are.

Do you feel transgender people threaten your safety and well-being as a woman? If so what personal experiences (not what you have read on Mumsnet / Twitter / Reddit) have made you reach this conclusion?
Some transwomen do, just as some men do. I have had very uncomfortable experiences at gigs for example and was injured by a transwoman at one. But this question feels goady to be honest, no feminist I’ve ever met would agree with such a blanket inflammatory statement.

Do you think current exceptions in the Equality Act (eg it is legal to exclude trans women from competitive spots and certain job roles such as rape crisis counselling) are sufficient to protect women
Well, they should be, if they were upheld. But if the GRA is amended to allow self-declaration then the exceptions would be meaningless.

If your male child repeatedly told you they were female from the age of three, wore dresses, played with girls etc and were very distressed at the thought of male puberty, how would you help them?
No one can, or should, answer this with a one-size-fits-all answer. Until one lives they experience one can never know. But I’d hope the answer would be age-appropriate explanations of what male and female mean, what sex and gender are, that wearing whatever you like and having whatever friends you like doesn’t alter your sex, but your sex doesn’t stop you wearing or doing whatever you want, constant loving non-judgemental support to do, wear, be whatever they wish to be and seeking professional psychological support if appropriate (real, open minded, psychological support to help them understand and manage their dysphoria, not blind woke gender-stereotype-affirming “support”). I’d look for gender critical support groups for parents to support me with how to best support my child so they can hopefully grow up happy and healthy in their own body, trying to reduce the risk of them spending their life chasing a futile impossibility, reliant on medication, infertile, surgically scarred.

Question for you - why are you interested in how feminists would support their male gender non-conforming children, and not female ones?

Btw - I would try to support my child to live the life they need to live as best I could. I guess this makes me a lib fem. Nope - that’s what makes you a good parent. Liberal feminism is feminism which seeks to effect change within the current system (patriarchy); radical feminism seeks to tear the system down and build a new, equitable one.

Newspeak · 10/05/2018 18:56

"Trans women are women"

Please define what is a women.

Hint: difficult to do without using biology

AssassinatedBeauty · 10/05/2018 18:57

Are you saying the current Gender Recognition Act should be repealed?

No. The fact that someone can legally change gender doesn't alter material reality, no one can actually change sex. They can be treated as if they were the opposite sex (with important exclusions) if they have a GRC.

If so, are you suggesting withdrawing hormones from those who have already transitioned?

No, why would anyone suggest that?

Do you think a fully transitioned trans woman with a GRC to ‘prove’ she is a woman (eg Nadia from Big Brother) should use the men’s loos and be in a male prison / care home / hostel?

If by fully transition, you mean having had full surgery, then using women's facilities is acceptable, as long as consideration is given to women in that situation. So someone who is still identifiable male despite surgery & GRC may cause issues for some women, and organisations should be able to use the exceptions under the law to stick to single sex services. In that situation I would hope there would be unisex facilities that could be used instead.

Do you think TRAs who say things on Twitter like ‘suck my ladydick’ and 'enjoy your erasure' are representative of transgender people as a whole?

No, but unfortunately they seem to be the ones who are being invited to speak to people with the power to change things, and who get invited to contribute on TV/radio/media etc.

Do you feel transgender people threaten your safety and well-being as a woman? If so what personal experiences (not what you have read on Mumsnet / Twitter / Reddit) have made you reach this conclusion?

No, because not all trans people are the same. The risk to my safety from trans women will be the same as my risk from men, in all likelihood. I'm not in fear of trans men at all.

I do have some reservations about those trans women whose motivation may be sexual, as I don't want to be an unwilling participant in anyone else's sex life.

Do you think current exceptions in the Equality Act (eg it is legal to exclude trans women from competitive spots and certain job roles such as rape crisis counselling) are sufficient to protect women? https://www.equalityhumanrights.com/en/advice-and-guidance/gender-reassignment-discriminationn*

Nope. They ought to be, but organizations seem terrified of using the exemptions presumably for fear of being labeled transphobic and suffering the consequences. Women's sport is a mess as a result. I would really hope that rape crisis organisations, shelters and so on are able to serve the women they need to without this all impacting on them.

If your male child repeatedly told you they were female from the age of three, wore dresses, played with girls etc and were very distressed at the thought of male puberty, how would you help them?

I wouldn't promise them they could become a girl/women as that's not possible, but I would focus on the fact that anyone can do/wear/behave etc as they want. I would go for watchful waiting, and for counselling. I would talk about how when they're older, if they still feel the same then they could consider changing their body to try and help how they feel.

ItsAllGoingToBeFine · 10/05/2018 18:58

Speaking only for myself

Mumsnet

Talk Feminism chat
Questions from a liberal feminist to the rad fems11
Today 18:15 daimbars

Questions from a liberal feminist to radical feminists.

Inspired by this thread:
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3244342-Has-anyone-else-just-discovered-that-they-are-a-RadFem

I have a few questions for the rad fems. I do get the concerns with self ID and the discussions around that.

The questions I have are for those who have posted comments such as:

You can’t argue with biological fact / trans women are men / being trans is a mental illness

My questions are:

Are you saying the current Gender Recognition Act should be repealed?

Yes. Instead beef up all of the protections in the Equality Act.

If so, are you suggesting withdrawing hormones from those who have already transitioned?

Of course not. People can modify their bodies however they like.

Do you think a fully transitioned trans woman with a GRC to ‘prove’ she is a woman (eg Nadia from Big Brother) should use the men’s loos and be in a male prison / care home / hostel?

Ultimately yes. They are male. This may be impractical at the moment due to male violence so perhaps trans people should fight for their own spaces.

Do you think TRAs who say things on Twitter like ‘suck my ladydick’ and 'enjoy your erasure' are representative of transgender people as a whole?

No.

Do you feel transgender people threaten your safety and well-being as a woman? If so what personal experiences (not what you have read on Mumsnet / Twitter / Reddit) have made you reach this conclusion?

Yes. The pushing of the Transwomen are women mantra is leading to single sex spaces (both literal (eg prisons) and metaphorical ( eg sports)) become mixed with pretty much no thought or consultation.

Do you think current exceptions in the Equality Act (eg it is legal to exclude trans women from competitive spots and certain job roles such as rape crisis counselling) are sufficient to protect women

They might be if they were actually used an enforced. Suspect they need to be needed up a bit.

If your male child repeatedly told you they were female from the age of three, wore dresses, played with girls etc and were very distressed at the thought of male puberty, how would you help them

I would gently explain that they were a male and it is not possible to change that. I would explore the reasons they believed this. I would explain that of course boys can wear dresses and play with girls, and of course girls can wear trousers and play with boys. I would explain that puberty happens to everyone, boys and girls, it's just a natural part of growing up. That everyone finds puberty difficult and scary, and that's ok.

cistersofterfy · 10/05/2018 18:59

I don't know if I'm a radical feminist but I changed my username once all the twitter vs Mumsnet stiff kicked off last week. I would say that peak transed me. But I know around six or seven trans people that I see regularly and I have nothing against them as individuals at all. Peak trans to me is a realisation at the extremism of the ideology.

In fact of all the transpeople I've spoken to irl, they've all agreed with my concerns and say that holding those views they don't consider to be transphobic.

I'm on the app so can't see your questions whilst typing but my two main concerns are - children going down a medical route before they know who they are, especially those who would grow up to be LG or B or who are on the autism spectrum. Secondly, the safeguards around the sexual fetishists. They do definitely exist because I was in a relationship with one. They are a different group from those with gender dysphoria and I think do need to be treated differently in respect of sex segregated spaces.

RealityHasALiberalBias · 10/05/2018 19:02

daimbars
Reality I would say that makes you liberal, why do you say you are rad fem?

I don’t think your understanding of either liberal or radical feminism is complete. For one thing, you seem to think they are defined in relation to trans issues. They are not.

SupermatchGame · 10/05/2018 19:02

Currently fully transitioned transwomen are generally welcomed in women-only spaces as a courtesy on an honour system.

No they are not. This is your fictional honour system. They are legally entitled to use most women-only spaces by law. There are certain situations where they may be excluded if necessary but this is a minority.

ReluctantCamper · 10/05/2018 19:03

Answers below.

Ideally yes. Pragmatically, no. Would like to see it tightened up, with the right in certain circumstances (not just because someone's a prurient nosy bastard) to ask to see a GRC.

withdrawing hormones
Hmm who has ever said this?

I'm not interested in policing who uses the toilets, but people should show consideration for others - transwomen should be aware that when they use that door marked 'women' there is a possibility that they're stopping a woman using it. If they still choose to do so there's not a lot I can do about that.

Regarding prisons, I think we need special accommodation for medically transitioned people - they deserve to be kept safe, and so do women prisoners.

No

Not physically. But I think the idea of 'lady brain', which it seems to me is at the heart of wanting to transition is inherently sexist and perpetuates the idea that the oppression of women is somehow natural.

Only if organisations feel comfortable about using EA exemptions, which clearly at the moment many do not.

I would help my child by letting them wear, and play with what they like. I would also make it clear their body is absolutely right for them, no-one can be born in the wrong body. I would do everything in my power to ensure they went through male puberty. depriving people of sexual function and the opportunity to develop their brain by going through puberty is very, very wrong.

PeakPants · 10/05/2018 19:04

I think when people are saying denying existence they don’t mean that you are denying their literal existence. It’s the fact that some people are saying trans is not a thing, it’s a mental illness, they are all deluded men etc. THAT is denying their existence because that is not how they perceive themselves.

Also the EA exemptions would NOT be rendered meaningless by self-ID. They would make it easier to get a GRC but it’s possible to exclude people with a GRC at the moment and it will be even if self ID comes in.

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