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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Questions from a liberal feminist to the rad fems

541 replies

daimbars · 10/05/2018 18:15

Questions from a liberal feminist to radical feminists.

Inspired by this thread:
http://www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3244342-Has-anyone-else-just-discovered-that-they-are-a-RadFem

I have a few questions for the rad fems. I do get the concerns with self ID and the discussions around that.

The questions I have are for those who have posted comments such as:

You can’t argue with biological fact / trans women are men / being trans is a mental illness

My questions are:

Are you saying the current Gender Recognition Act should be repealed?

If so, are you suggesting withdrawing hormones from those who have already transitioned?

Do you think a fully transitioned trans woman with a GRC to ‘prove’ she is a woman (eg Nadia from Big Brother) should use the men’s loos and be in a male prison / care home / hostel?

Do you think TRAs who say things on Twitter like ‘suck my ladydick’ and 'enjoy your erasure' are representative of transgender people as a whole?

Do you feel transgender people threaten your safety and well-being as a woman? If so what personal experiences (not what you have read on Mumsnet / Twitter / Reddit) have made you reach this conclusion?

Do you think current exceptions in the Equality Act (eg it is legal to exclude trans women from competitive spots and certain job roles such as rape crisis counselling) are sufficient to protect women? https://www.equalityhumanrights.com/en/advice-and-guidance/gender-reassignment-discrimination

If your male child repeatedly told you they were female from the age of three, wore dresses, played with girls etc and were very distressed at the thought of male puberty, how would you help them?

My answers are no, no, no, no, no, yes. The last question I would struggle with the most but I would try to support my child to live the life they need to live as best I could. I guess this makes me a lib fem.

OP posts:
Ereshkigal · 11/05/2018 00:00

But not everyone who 'changed genders' identifies as trans anything. They identify as the gender they've changed to. Or sex they've changed to according to the GRA. They want to get on with life as a member of that gender as much as feasibly possible after having been treated for a medical condition.

But other people have rights too. It's not just about them.

PermissionToSpeakSir · 11/05/2018 00:03

But other people have rights too. It's not just about them.

Exactly. Having dysphoria is not a free pass to be self-centred.

SupermatchGame · 11/05/2018 00:08

But other people have rights too. It's not just about them.

But those rights don't extend to telling someone else what their identity is or who and what they are.

UpstartCrow · 11/05/2018 00:08

Nice strawman there.

PermissionToSpeakSir · 11/05/2018 00:15

But those rights don't extend to telling someone else what their identity is

I personally have no fucking idea what an 'identity' is - so I'll say fair enough to that one.

or who and what they are.

mmm... If someone is a thief, I have the right to call them a thief, if someone is a liar, I have the right to call them a liar. If someone is from Germany I have the right to call them German, if someone is a brilliant artist, I have the right to call them a brilliant artist.

If someone claims to be something they are not, I have the right to tell them they are mistaken or lying. It is my right to say what I know to be true if it needs to be said (in my opinion).

Ereshkigal · 11/05/2018 00:27

If someone claims to be something they are not, I have the right to tell them they are mistaken or lying. It is my right to say what I know to be true if it needs to be said (in my opinion)

YY. Especially when they are doing it to gain something harmful to others.

Ereshkigal · 11/05/2018 00:28

I don't care about their identity. I don't have to believe everything people say to my own detriment.

Merchfach · 11/05/2018 00:37

I was involved in a women's organisation, run largely on a voluntary basis and on a shoestring (as so many women's women's voluntary organisations are) that collapsed after many years offering a range of services to all kinds of women because a transwoman demanded entry to events in order to educate us about trans issues. When someone who is clearly male turns up in a wig and lipstick insisting on their right 'as a woman' to enter women-only space in order to teach the women present about trans rights one has absolutely no idea who or what one's really dealing with. Is the individual a fully transitioned person with a GRC or someone living part-time in female clothing or just an angry man determined to disrupt? It can be very difficult if the individual concerned isn't interested in being honest and open about their motivation, as this one wasn't. Every conversation was about 'her' right to be involved — not about our right to say no and hold boundaries.

The liberal feminists on the committee voted to admit this individual to the organisations and its events. The Muslim women and most of the lesbians (many of whom had no idea they were radical till that point) objected and left. The organisation began to crumble and ceased to exist within around 18 months. The legal surgeries, the support groups for women with mental health issues, the minority ethnic groups, the lesbian events, the DV and abuse survivors support — all gone because a man insisted on the right to educate us about trans people.

I have no idea whether there were other trans people involved in the organisation. No one vetted those who turned up. It wasn't about looks or clothing: some of the lesbians might easily have been mistaken for men. It was about attitude, about being positive about women, about a shared understanding of the difficulties women face in the world. For all I know there could already have been a number of transwomen attending events — but as women, not as transwomen and not with an agenda to educate us and tell us how we should think.

This is why I am a radical feminist.

Pythagonal · 11/05/2018 00:58

Are you saying the current Gender Recognition Act should be repealed?
I don't think so, but I do think that if a trans person can demonstrate that they have been living as their preferred gender while they wait for a consultant's appointment, this should be counted towards the two years.

If so, are you suggesting withdrawing hormones from those who have already transitioned?
That's between them and their doctors.

Do you think a fully transitioned trans woman with a GRC to ‘prove’ she is a woman (eg Nadia from Big Brother) should use the men’s loos and be in a male prison / care home / hostel?
I don't know who Nadia from BB is, but the honour system worked well for years, until the TRA's came along.

Do you think TRAs who say things on Twitter like ‘suck my ladydick’ and 'enjoy your erasure' are representative of transgender people as a whole?
No, and I think that they are damaging the way that most trans people are perceived. I also worry that if self ID becomes law, then the government will stop funding treatment for gender dysphoria (call me cynical if you want to).

Do you feel transgender people threaten your safety and well-being as a woman? If so what personal experiences (not what you have read on Mumsnet / Twitter / Reddit) have made you reach this conclusion?
I've no personal experience, but I can completely sympathise with women who don't want to receive medical treatment/whatever from a male, be they male presenting, or a trans woman.

Do you think current exceptions in the Equality Act (eg it is legal to exclude trans women from competitive spots and certain job roles such as rape crisis counselling) are sufficient to protect women? www.equalityhumanrights.com/en/advice-and-guidance/gender-reassignment-discrimination
I think they are probably sufficient but companies, etc, are scared to use them for fear of seeming to be non-inclusive.

If your male child repeatedly told you they were female from the age of three, wore dresses, played with girls etc and were very distressed at the thought of male puberty, how would you help them?
I don't have, and never will have children, so I don't feel that I should answer this question.

CharlieParley · 11/05/2018 01:13

Are you saying the current Gender Recognition Act should be repealed?

I'd have said no until very recently. Having now discussed it with a number of transsexuals and a couple of legal eagles, my answer is yes.

It has become obsolete and it has enshrined a dangerous legal fiction in law that is now being used to make even worse laws (cf the Scottish law on equal representation for women on non-exec company boards which has been written so that a) the state now states that men actually become female - as in biologically female - by mere declaration of intent to become a woman and b) a company board composed of 50% men and 50% transwomen is a board that represents men and women equally under this law.)

The language used is a hot mess wildly swapping sex and gender, its purpose of protecting a truly minute number of post-op transsexuals has been superseded by new developments within the trans community.

It should be replaced with a system that respects the protected characteristic of sex AND protects post-op transsexuals and individuals with severe gender dysphoria who for various reasons cannot or will not fully medically transition.

Those who identify as trans but do not suffer from GD are protected against discrimination under the EA but have to accept that they are not entitled to the legal rights conferred by a GRC or a similar replacement. Identity does not trump material reality.

If so, are you suggesting withdrawing hormones from those who have already transitioned?

Eh? You did not read that here. Have you maybe mistaken the very reasonable demand that hormones should not be administered to anyone without proper counselling with that claptrap? And what does this have to do with the GRA that you're saying if so?

Do you think a fully transitioned trans woman with a GRC to ‘prove’ she is a woman (eg Nadia from Big Brother) should use the men’s loos and be in a male prison / care home / hostel?

I have zero idea who Nadia is.

A post-op transkid who never went through male puberty at all should in my view have access regardless of GRC ownership.

A post-op transsexual who transitioned after male puberty should be treated on a case by case basis depending on which female spaces we're talking about.

Non-med, non-op transgender males do not belong in women's spaces - ever. However, I would actively support third spaces for transgender persons.

Do you think TRAs who say things on Twitter like ‘suck my ladydick’ and 'enjoy your erasure' are representative of transgender people as a whole?

They often seem to be when a) they're the ones invited to speak on trans issues and b) when trans orgs completely fail to condemn their behaviour or that of people like Tara Wolf who was convicted of assaulting a 60-year-old woman but who was nonetheless supported as the victim of transphobia by all or almost all of the official trans orgs and a whole slew of trans allies.

But no, deep down in my heart I do not think they are representative of transsexuals. Gender radicals, yes, definitely. TRAs yes definitely. Transgender - unsure. As transgender people do not distance themselves from those uttering those vile views, it's becoming harder and harder to think that they are unrepresentative of transgender people as a group. (By transsexual I mean trans people with gender dysphoria and by transgender those without GD).

Do you feel transgender people threaten your safety and well-being as a woman? If so what personal experiences (not what you have read on Mumsnet / Twitter / Reddit) have made you reach this conclusion?

Yes. Both on a personal level and a class-based level. But even if I hadn't had negative personal experiences I would answer yes to this question. Not because I am afraid of trans people as a group, but because gender radical or TRA goals are not compatible with sex based protections for women and girls.

Men as a group are a danger to women as a group. Male violence and dominance are the problem and the reason why single-sex protections and provisions exist.

The goal of the TRAs is to introduce self-id without any kind of gate keeping ie to allow access for all males who identify as women to all women spaces, places and rights. I am completely opposed to this.

Do you think current exceptions in the Equality Act (eg it is legal to exclude trans women from competitive spots and certain job roles such as rape crisis counselling) are sufficient to protect women? www.equalityhumanrights.com/en/advice-and-guidance/gender-reassignment-discrimination

No. They are far too restrictive and they are not properly applied.

If your male child repeatedly told you they were female from the age of three, wore dresses, played with girls etc and were very distressed at the thought of male puberty, how would you help them?

Having spent a lot of time with three year old boys, there is no such thing as a transgender three year old but there are quite a lot of parents with extremely rigid ideas about behaviours and expressions appropriate to either sex.

I've actually discussed this with my mother recently who spent 35 years teaching three year olds and the empirical evidence of thousands of children of that age supports that view. (Parents project a lot of their views onto their children in how they interpret behaviours and how they attempt to influence unwanted behaviours.)

Children's identity is flexible and plastic, it responds to outside influences, lived experiences and physical changes. Which is why the vast majority of gender-non-conforming children and of children with gender dysphoria reconcile with their birth sex during or after puberty.

There are extremely rare cases of genuine gender dysphoria which presents in early childhood and persists into adulthood, at a rate of 6 in 100,000 children. These children are always homosexual transsexuals and no gender dysphoria expert in the world can reliably predict which child with GD will persist and which doesn't. Which is why the new affirmation-only approach is so dangerous.

So, if this was my child, I'd do what I did - my kids wore what they wanted and played with who and what they wanted. We did not tell them they had to behave a certain way based on their sex.

I would fight tooth and nail against any suggestion of giving puberty blockers and cross sex hormones before the age of 18. I would sue anyone for clinical malpractice who damaged my child in that way. Why? Because we now know that puberty blockers arrest sexual, physical and neurological development, damaging all three irreversibly. They lower IQ FFS - who on earth wants that for their child?

Allowing the development of normal function and then giving hormones if the child persists into adulthood would lead to vastly better outcomes healthwise. This would bring the drawback of the child going through male puberty of course, but with an 80% chance of this being the right approach, I would go that way - even if my child was indeed transsexual as this approach would also mean they could enjoy a healthy sex life after transition.

(This is based on extensive reading of the medical literature on the effect of puberty blockers, cross sex hormones and mental health outcomes.)

RatRolyPoly · 11/05/2018 07:42

People should have a right to privacy, unless there is a good reason not (as others have described).

Well that's exactly what I'm saying... so we agree?

Persimmon DFOD with your "overcoming body dysphoria" comment. You clearly know eff-all about eating disorders. Just like trans, they're not all the same. And more importantly... they're nothing like trans.

It was nothing to do with my body thank you very much, it was to do with destroying myself and disappearing. If I had succeeded, rather than being able to go about my life finally free from the shackles of dysphoria like a transitioned transperson might, I would be dead.

So a somewhat different thing you absolute....

QuentinSummers · 11/05/2018 07:43

rat thanks for your input re: the GRA. It makes sense. But also seems to be a sledgehammer to crack a nut.
I think rather than having the GRA it would be better to remove gender markers from identification so people's transition wasn't outed on their passport. Or maybe sex should be treated as sensitive personal information so it would become an offence to disclose it to people for no good reason.

I don't know. I guess the current GRA is part of the foundation for "Trans women ARE women" And that is the thing that bugs me most about the whole trans movement and the thing I would most like to change. Trans women are trans women. Women are adult human females. They aren't the same and I hate being told I have to think they are. It is total doublethink.

RatRolyPoly · 11/05/2018 08:09

Quentin I agree entirely with both of your suggestions, particularly removing sex as a marker on things like passports. I mean it's going to be pretty useless on there anyway isn't it when gender stereotypes have finally been broken down and it stops being a useful sanity test when looking at the passport holder.

I'd put my full weight behind any calls to achieve either I think.

The thing about "are transwomen women?" is that I do think it's possible to have this whole debate without ever having to answer that question. And so the fact that the two camps cannot agree needn't be the sticking point out always has been.

The crux of it is that the EA allows you to discriminate on the grounds of gender reassignment under certain circumstances. It doesn't matter if you think the people you're able to exclude are women who have changed gender, or simply men, because you can exclude that whole group on the basis of their gender reassignment - when necessary.

So for me it's a question I really wish we'd all stop asking to be honest because it just makes everybody angry and I'm not even sure it matters to the practical result.

CoteDAzur · 11/05/2018 08:15

I am not a RadFem but my views on trans issues align with those of RadFems, so I'll answer your questions:

"so, are you suggesting withdrawing hormones from those who have already transitioned?"

No. Everyone owns their bodies and should be free to modify them as they like, as long as they are adults. That includes menopausal women who want HRT.

"Do you think a fully transitioned trans woman with a GRC to ‘prove’ she is a woman (eg Nadia from Big Brother) should use the men’s loos and be in a male prison / care home / hostel?"

(1) GRC doesn't "prove" anyone is a woman. It merely says that the state will recognize them as one for legal purposes.

(2) If they are not comfortable in male facilities, they should campaign for trans facilities of their own. That should not be a problem:
..... (a) if trans really is such a widespread, normal phenomenon as they claim
......(b) and given the evidently inexhaustible financial funds and TRA man-hours trans movement has at its disposal.

What should not happen is women being disadvantaged and relatively unsafe in places where they are vulnerable.

"Do you think TRAs who say things on Twitter like ‘suck my ladydick’ and 'enjoy your erasure' are representative of transgender people as a whole?"

I don't care if they are or not.

What I do care about is that these dangerous, aggressive crazies will be considered women and allowed access into female shelters, communal changing areas, hospital wards etc if self-ID goes forward.

"Do you feel transgender people threaten your safety and well-being as a woman? If so what personal experiences"

No transgender person threatens me personally.

Transgender ideology ("Woman is just a feeling, it's when you like dolls & frilly clothes, males are just as women as females if they say they are" etc) is a threat to all girls and women everywhere.

If it becomes accepted and enshrined in law, there will be no female-only spaces, no right to request a female gynecologist or be examined by a female doctor after a rape. Women's sport will be dead and buried in a single generation.

If you call yourself a feminist, you should be trying to find ways to avert that disaster.

"Do you think current exceptions in the Equality Act (eg it is legal to exclude trans women from competitive spots and certain job roles such as rape crisis counselling) are sufficient to protect women?"

No.

"If your male child repeatedly told you they were female from the age of three, wore dresses, played with girls etc and were very distressed at the thought of male puberty, how would you help them?"

By doing nothing at all. Most likely he would grown out of it, just like he grew out of saying he was a cat, walking around on all fours and rubbing at people's legs while purring.

In the unlikely event that he persist and wants to modify his body, he would be a transwoman not a woman.

As it happens, DS did go through a period where he said he was a girl but that was just imitating his older sister imho. It passed. He plays more with girls than boys even today, and likes role play with his stuffed animals.

That doesn't mean he's a girl. It just means there's no such thing as gender and gender expectations à la "Girls like dolls, boys like dinosaurs" are myths.

PermissionToSpeakSir · 11/05/2018 08:15

So a somewhat different thing

I agree it is completely different - you shouldn't have brought it up since it is a poor analogy.

Did you raise the subject to ramp up the emotivism and ramp down the logic in the discussion?

Ereshkigal · 11/05/2018 08:25

So for me it's a question I really wish we'd all stop asking to be honest because it just makes everybody angry and I'm not even sure it matters to the practical result.

It's not a question. Everyone knows the truth.

RatRolyPoly · 11/05/2018 08:26

WTF is your problem? I brought it up as an example of something I might be proud of - and that others might think I would be proud of - but that I would rather was private.

You are really quite unpleasant, and way out of line. Aren't you able to have a civil conversation?

Ereshkigal · 11/05/2018 08:26

But if you think people are going to stop challenging the claim of males that they are women, you're going to be disappointed.

Ereshkigal · 11/05/2018 08:31

I made a response to something you said. That's all. What was so uncivil about it? I disagreed with you.

RatRolyPoly · 11/05/2018 08:33

Sorry Ereshkigal, that wasn't to you :)

It was the poster above you who's got my back up a bit.

Ereshkigal · 11/05/2018 08:37

Ah ok, no worries.

BrandNewHouse · 11/05/2018 08:44

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

RealityHasALiberalBias · 11/05/2018 08:56

Rat I agree with you that in theory it shouldn’t matter whether or not a person believes that transwomen are women. The problem in respect of the Equality Act exemptions is that, in practice, not enough organisations are utilising the exemptions, and the ones that do tend to be lobbied aggressively by TRAs. On the grounds that transwomen are women.

So unfortunately it comes down to either TRAs respect the application of the law, even if they disagree with it, or they accept that transwomen are not women.

RatRolyPoly · 11/05/2018 09:43

The problem in respect of the Equality Act exemptions is that, in practice, not enough organisations are utilising the exemptions, and the ones that do tend to be lobbied aggressively by TRAs. On the grounds that transwomen are women.

Interesting, yes. I can see the inclination is not there to evoke the exemptions.

I'm wondering if when an organisation wants to use them they should be encouraged to state categorically that they are exempting "women" (whether you believe they are or not) on the grounds of their gender reassignment specifically.

Then any lobbying they would face that "transwomen are women" they could simply agree - transwomen are women - but we have a legitimate aim that can only be achieved by excluding women who have the protected characteristic of " gender reassignment".

Would that work, do you think? Or at least help?

Obviously you then exclude transwomen and transmen, but I think in situations where you would have a sound legal case for excluding transwomen you would also need to exclude testosterone taking, surgically altered natal females who look exactly like natal males anyway.

PermissionToSpeakSir · 11/05/2018 10:07

WTF is your problem? I brought it up as an example of something I might be proud of - and that others might think I would be proud of - but that I would rather was private.

Being out and proud is about not living a lie and trying to deceive everyone you meet.

Not talking about a long passed illness is not an act of deception.

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