Questions from a liberal feminist to the rad fems

[daimbars]

Questions from a liberal feminist to radical feminists.

Inspired by this thread:
http://www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3244342-Has-anyone-else-just-discovered-that-they-are-a-RadFem

I have a few questions for the rad fems. I do get the concerns with self ID and the discussions around that.

The questions I have are for those who have posted comments such as:

You can’t argue with biological fact / trans women are men / being trans is a mental illness

My questions are:

Are you saying the current Gender Recognition Act should be repealed?

If so, are you suggesting withdrawing hormones from those who have already transitioned?

Do you think a fully transitioned trans woman with a GRC to ‘prove’ she is a woman (eg Nadia from Big Brother) should use the men’s loos and be in a male prison / care home / hostel?

Do you think TRAs who say things on Twitter like ‘suck my ladydick’ and 'enjoy your erasure' are representative of transgender people as a whole?

Do you feel transgender people threaten your safety and well-being as a woman? If so what personal experiences (not what you have read on Mumsnet / Twitter / Reddit) have made you reach this conclusion?

Do you think current exceptions in the Equality Act (eg it is legal to exclude trans women from competitive spots and certain job roles such as rape crisis counselling) are sufficient to protect women? https://www.equalityhumanrights.com/en/advice-and-guidance/gender-reassignment-discrimination

If your male child repeatedly told you they were female from the age of three, wore dresses, played with girls etc and were very distressed at the thought of male puberty, how would you help them?

My answers are no, no, no, no, no, yes. The last question I would struggle with the most but I would try to support my child to live the life they need to live as best I could. I guess this makes me a lib fem.

I'm talking about transitioned trans women, with no record or risk of offending.

It really would be of benefit if you read a little more about the 'law' you talk of upthread.

I believe the precedent was set by Karen Jones who was transferred to female prison estate prior to GRS and GRA having being previously convicted of both murder and a sexual offence.

I am still reading and trying to understand better, there is a lot to understand, hence the 'I believe'.

GRC I meant...

And yes I'm well aware my posts get deleted too, but I'm not boasting about it.

Yes there was a slight hint of boast. Cringed when I read it back. I didn't bring up the subject of deletions another person did and I responded.

What is striking to me in the things I have read is the absence of any consideration of the needs of the women prisoners already held in the prison estate.

This seems a similar theme in inclusion policies elsewhere that I have read such as sports, school loos / changing rooms and GRA discussion.

There is a need for impact studies on the possible effects for girls and women. To be discussing this on FWR board seems appropriate.

There is a need for impact studies on the possible effects for girls and women. To be discussing this on FWR board seems appropriate.

Your derails, SuperMatchGame less so....

That's great and all, but we're not responsible for the umbrella being expanded to ludicrous proportions, so maybe take that up with the organizations that are.

That's why there is a consultation so we can all have a say. Stonewall have highlighted the exception to inclusion in their policy where it matters with regards to some single sex facilities.

lol, it's not hard. You're making up your own arbitrary definitions of "trans woman" yet citing Stonewall as an authority. Ask them what "transgender" means.

I was quite clearly talking about transitioned trans women. I cited Stonewall earlier as one of many organisations that would not bar all transitioned trans women from female spaces. That doesn't mean I think all transgender males should have access to female prisons - and I didn't say they should.

I'm sure you can ask a friend what male means. Or use a dictionary.

Alright for you to be snarky isn't it. Yet you call me out on it.

At what point does one transition?

R0wantrees
What is striking to me in the things I have read is the absence of any consideration of the needs of the women prisoners already held in the prison estate.

That is exactly why I agree with the case by case basis - so the risk to women can be assessed. That isn't for the benefit of the trans prisoner, it is to safeguard the safety of the other female prisoners.

Your derails, SuperMatchGame less so....

My contributions aren't derails, and I don't need you to decide how relevant my posts are thank you.

At what point does one transition?

What ever our opinions, in practice the decision will be made by the organisations and authorities involved.

My contributions aren't derails, and I don't need you to decide how relevant my posts are thank you.

Quite.

Perhaps Sarah Ditum's article in The Guardian today is helpful to read:
(extract)
"In 2016, the women and equalities committee published its trans inquiry report. It recommended changing the protected characteristic from “gender reassignment” (not sex) to “gender identity”. More than two years later, there’s been no legislative progress, meaning both women and trans people have been left in limbo about how their conflicting rights will be resolved. Yet at the same time, there’s been a rapid informal adoption of gender identity as the defining marker for accessing women-only services and spaces.

From Labour’s all-women shortlists to the Guides to workplace mentoring schemes, things designed for women (or girls) are now open to self-identified women. A small shift in semantics, but a significant one. For women, it means their sex is increasingly cast as a matter of feeling, not fact – no minor thing when your sex is the one that takes the brunt of pregnancy, maternity discrimination, unpaid domestic labour, sexual harassment and rape. Areas established as female-only have become in effect “gender-neutral”, while gender at large stubbornly refuses to be neutralised.

For some trans women, particularly those who transitioned before the current consensus on gender identity, this new environment isn’t a triumph – it’s a threat. Having gone through sex reassignment and empathised with the experiences of being female in a sexist society, they understand that removing all limits and safeguards on the legal definition of sex creates a loophole for violent men. And that leaves trans women as vulnerable as it does all women: if the problem is male violence, then trans people have every bit as much interest as all women do in keeping bad-faith claims from gaining legal force."

www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2018/may/13/genderquake-failed-now-for-a-proper-trans-debate

I'm talking about transitioned trans women, with no record or risk of offending.

Then why are they incarcerated? WTF are you talking about?

@xxyzz Thank you!!

Thanks for sharing ROwantrees - a good read and highlights that trans women are as much at risk as all women from 'bad faith claims'.

@daimbars did you understand my answer to your question about how boy brain girl brain genderist thinking contributes to dysphoria in children? Only with you being so passionate about people suffering with GID and asking questions specifically in support of them I wondered if you had paused to reflect on this. Some of us are seeing the competing narratives at work on children who could easily go either way. One way leads to great suffering. The other to radical self acceptance.

SuperMatchGame
I will happily add a 'sometimes' to my comment with regards my comment about derails and add that I was thinking specifically of some of your posts made on Friday night on this thread. We are of course all able to decide on relevance and post freely here for which I am very grateful.

I was quite clearly talking about transitioned trans women. I cited Stonewall earlier as one of many organisations that would not bar all transitioned trans women from female spaces.

As I said your arbitrary definition of a "transitioned trans woman" which Stonewall and all those august organisations do not agree with is not relevant here.

You'll have to picture the italics.

Maybe they mean transsexuals but don't want to use the word because it undermines their many false statements about the laws? I am very confused.

Then why are they incarcerated? WTF are you talking about?

I meant sex offending or violent offending, should have specified that, but that is what was being discussed.

There have been 'trans women' in prison who are there for completely non violent reasons, for example that wikileaks person. Disclaimer: I don't know enough about that person nor am I claiming what type of 'trans' person they are. Point is that not all trans prisoners are there for sex offences/ violent offences.

I cited Stonewall earlier as one of many organisations that would not bar all transitioned trans women from female spaces.

Stonewall wouldn't ban anyone from female spaces. Their only criteria for allowing people into female spaces is that people want to be in them.

Their only criteria for allowing people into female spaces is that people want to be in them.

Indeed.

Yy

that wikileaks person may well have been in prison for espionage/whistleblowing (delete according to preference) but had violently attacked a woman soldier shortly before arrest - and the excuse given was "struggling with gender issues". So I'm not sure why they would have been a suitable candidate for bunking down with women if "struggling with gender issues" makes them violent towards women.

I wish males would just let us have a bit of fucking space.

Why don't they piss off?

Needy little arsewipes