Meet the Other Phone. A phone that grows with your child.

Meet the Other Phone.
A phone that grows with your child.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Questions from a liberal feminist to the rad fems

541 replies

daimbars · 10/05/2018 18:15

Questions from a liberal feminist to radical feminists.

Inspired by this thread:
http://www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3244342-Has-anyone-else-just-discovered-that-they-are-a-RadFem

I have a few questions for the rad fems. I do get the concerns with self ID and the discussions around that.

The questions I have are for those who have posted comments such as:

You can’t argue with biological fact / trans women are men / being trans is a mental illness

My questions are:

Are you saying the current Gender Recognition Act should be repealed?

If so, are you suggesting withdrawing hormones from those who have already transitioned?

Do you think a fully transitioned trans woman with a GRC to ‘prove’ she is a woman (eg Nadia from Big Brother) should use the men’s loos and be in a male prison / care home / hostel?

Do you think TRAs who say things on Twitter like ‘suck my ladydick’ and 'enjoy your erasure' are representative of transgender people as a whole?

Do you feel transgender people threaten your safety and well-being as a woman? If so what personal experiences (not what you have read on Mumsnet / Twitter / Reddit) have made you reach this conclusion?

Do you think current exceptions in the Equality Act (eg it is legal to exclude trans women from competitive spots and certain job roles such as rape crisis counselling) are sufficient to protect women? https://www.equalityhumanrights.com/en/advice-and-guidance/gender-reassignment-discrimination

If your male child repeatedly told you they were female from the age of three, wore dresses, played with girls etc and were very distressed at the thought of male puberty, how would you help them?

My answers are no, no, no, no, no, yes. The last question I would struggle with the most but I would try to support my child to live the life they need to live as best I could. I guess this makes me a lib fem.

OP posts:
PermissionToSpeakSir · 13/05/2018 22:45

I don't care what they wear or how they do their hair - they can be in full-face make-up and a dress or in a business suit or whatever.

The needy, grasping little fuckers need to get off our tits.

R0wantrees · 13/05/2018 22:48

Bex Stinson (Head of Stonewall's Trans Inclusion) is unequivocal in her position as she makes clear in her tweets.

SupermatchGame · 13/05/2018 23:19

but had violently attacked a woman soldier shortly before arrest - and the excuse given was "struggling with gender issues".

And that is bad. We don't know all the details but is this the attack where they:

'found Pte Manning pinned to the ground by his female superior, Specialist Jihrleah Showman.'

LangCleg · 13/05/2018 23:23

We don't know all the details.

Well, people who did a quick Google and clicked on the first result don't, no.

AngryAttackKittens · 13/05/2018 23:40

Loving Permission's multi-comment rant. I too frequently experience interactions with men as being like dealing with a needy toddler. If I'd wanted a child I'd have had one! And they'd have been more polite and better behaved.

Italiangreyhound · 14/05/2018 00:36

@daimbars I've just done an online test and I am 1% more lib fem than rad fem! So can I answer! Does it count!

Are you saying the current Gender Recognition Act should be repealed?

No, but I think it should be clarified, to consider things like whether someone asking to be ‘a woman in law’ is actually a danger to women. Like a rapist in jail who may have ulterior motives for identifying.

Do you think a fully transitioned trans woman with a GRC to ‘prove’ she is a woman (eg Nadia from Big Brother) should use the men’s loos and be in a male prison / care home / hostel?

No, but then I don’t expect them to share with women automatically either.

This is tough because as far as I know there is not a way to distinguish who is ‘fully-transitioned’ and some trans women themselves would argue they are trans women and have always been women regardless of surgery, hormones or a GRC. I do remember Nadia. I liked her. I don’t mind sharing toilets with women who have a GRC. The big issue for me is prisons and other places like hospital wards rather than toilets. I’d like proper provisions for trans people in prisons and care homes etc. Some care homes still expect people to share bedrooms.

Do you think TRAs who say things on Twitter like ‘suck my ladydick’ and 'enjoy your erasure' are representative of transgender people as a whole?

No, I do not. But I also feel that the trans ‘community’ should be joining women in calling out this type of offensive language and behaviour.

Do you feel transgender people threaten your safety and well-being as a woman? If so what personal experiences (not what you have read on Mumsnet / Twitter / Reddit) have made you reach this conclusion?

I think that self id threatens all women and girls, and so all who are pushing for self id, do threaten women because it allows the gaslighting of women, girls (and all people) to persuade them to believe that a woman is whatever anyone says they are. Not all trans people are in favour of self id so my answer is neither yes nor no!

Self id erodes women’s boundaries about not wanting to change alongside male bodied people/sharing female only spaces with male-bodied people etc. Even the idea that self id might become a reality has already led to expectations about what women should have to accept in terms of female only spaces and who can be identified as female.

I have not been personally threatened by a trans person and I bear trans people no ill will. But I do believe in female only spaces and that biology matters. The issue for me is that self id opens the door for any male to identify as a woman and for all that means. I believe this will put trans women in danger too.

Do you think current exceptions in the Equality Act (eg it is legal to exclude trans women from competitive spots and certain job roles such as rape crisis counselling) are sufficient to protect women?

Well, if they were fully implemented maybe but they are not being fully implemented. Plus around the world them are multiple cases of males competing in sports against women and this could destroy women’s sports. Trans women should not be able to compete in sports to the detriment of natal women. It is not a human right to be able to compete in sports professionally or socially against anyone you want to.

If your male child repeatedly told you they were female from the age of three, wore dresses, played with girls etc and were very distressed at the thought of male puberty, how would you help them?

Interesting you said male child when currently the largest demographic seems to be female children (aka girls) identifying as boys.

Either way, for me, children are children and should have their childhoods free of potentially damaging hormones or massively damaging expectations.

They can wear what they like, play with whatever toys they like, have a unisex nick name and just live their lives as my child. As an adult they would, of course, make their own choices. I love my kids unconditionally, which means that I want them in my life and I want them happy, I want to support them but for me I would not be encouraging the belief they can change sex or should because of how they feel at 3.

I feel in the past parents went along with the idea their child was somehow trapped ‘in the wrong body’ because it seemed the kindest thing to do. And I can really see that but now there are so many gender non-conforming children, and society is so much more open to the idea that boys and girls can be free to be themselves. I really hope in the future it will be more normal and accepted for boys to love sparkles and unicorns and dresses and girls to love climbing trees and getting muddy and whatever else was once considered the preserve of boys.

Ereshkigal · 14/05/2018 08:27

'found Pte Manning pinned to the ground by his female superior, Specialist Jihrleah Showman.'

Pretty sure the Pte may have slapped the Specialist across the face first. But who knows? except it is quite easy to find out

Ereshkigal · 14/05/2018 08:35

Oh sorry my mistake, Pte Manning punched her "in the phace" by Manning's own admission.

LangCleg · 14/05/2018 09:00

Pretty sure the Pte may have slapped the Specialist across the face first. But who knows?

Manning attacked a female soldier. Manning was restrained to prevent the attack continuing. This is a matter of factual record as entered into evidence in court in Manning's case. Manning's defence did not challenge these facts but accepted them (indeed, it was a matter of Manning's army record). Manning's defence did offer mitigation for this violent assault, which was that Manning had "gender confusion issues" and therefore had good reason for being unable to control violent impulses.

So, y'know. Yeah. Let's have people like that Wikileaks person accommodated in women's jails when their offences are non-violent but there is evidence, from the perp's own defence team that VAWG leading up to the crime was caused by their gender dysphoria. Good plan. Not.

(Those of us with a big interest in governmental whistleblowing whether for or against - I think Manning is a whistleblower, not a traitor - followed every word of the Manning case and so do know all the details.)

Teacuphiccup · 14/05/2018 09:24

Wasn’t that defense used by the trans woman who spoke at the House of Lords?
She broke into a shop and attacked a woman, putting a lemon in the woman’s mouth and threatening to rape her, then used her upset about her gender issues as a defence.

How come one one hand upset about gender issues is used as a defence in the court of law but on the other its transphobic to point out that some trans women are violent.

LangCleg · 14/05/2018 09:32

I would say textbook examples of Lawrence's Shame and Narcissistic Rage - but I'm sure that would just trigger Crisp to come and tell us all about quackery! Wink

PencilsInSpace · 14/05/2018 09:36

SupermatchGame - As I said before not all transitioned trans women are sex offenders and hence their inclusion in women prisons should be assessed on a case by case basis. That is what I said earlier and that is what I am saying now. That is also the legal position unless I have misunderstood?

Yes you have misunderstood. I posted earlier in the thread about the prison rules for trans prisoners. Those with a GRC are housed in accordance with their new 'legal sex'. Only those without a GRC are dealt with on a case by case basis.

I believe in Scotland even those without a GRC are housed according to their self-ID'd gender unless there are very strong reasons not to do so. That's why so many of the awful stories are coming from Scottish prisons.

LangCleg · 14/05/2018 09:41

(BTW - not germane to trans and women's prisons, but Manning was convicted of espionage and was therefore held in the dreadful max security conditions in US prisons, including solitary confinement - there were issues with healthcare and suicide attempts. I think almost all of us on here would agree that such conditions are despicable, whatever the offence and regardless of trans status.)

AngryAttackKittens · 15/05/2018 02:55

Agreed. On a personal level does Manning seem like a nice person who I'd want to be friends with? No. Does that mean that Manning was a traitor and deserved to be on the receiving end of the US government's tendency to throw their weight around and mistreat prisoners in the hopes of discouraging future defiance? Also no.

Ereshkigal · 15/05/2018 08:30

Yes I agree.

R0wantrees · 15/05/2018 13:05

If your male child repeatedly told you they were female from the age of three, wore dresses, played with girls etc and were very distressed at the thought of male puberty, how would you help them?

The role that schools should play is discussed here:
www.theguardian.com/education/2018/may/15/transgender-row-teachers-afraid-challenge-breast-binding
(extract)
"Schools are supporting increasing numbers of transgender students, using a variety of guidance from the teaching unions and charities such as Mermaids (which has a grant of £35,000 from the Department for Education to deliver training to 35 schools).

This rise is reflected in referrals to the children’s Gender Identity Development Service (Gids), run by the Tavistock and Portman NHS trust, which increased by 1,978% – from 97 in 2009 to 2,016 in 2016-17. Of those children, 70% are biologically female.

Bernadette Wren, a clinical psychologist at Gids, says many young people seen by the service have been bullied or self-harm, and a number are on the autistic spectrum."

New posts on this thread. Refresh page
Please create an account

To comment on this thread you need to create a Mumsnet account.

This thread is closed and is no longer accepting replies. Click here to start a new thread.

Swipe left for the next trending thread