Posie: truthcrime harassment continues

[Pratchet]

Susie Green from Mermaids has appealed against the CPS decision not to pursue Posie.

Posie described truthfully what Susie Green did to her child in Thailand at the age of sixteen: surgery involving the removal of genitals, a decision so shocking to the Thai government they raised the age bar for such operations to 18.

A woman is being pursued and harassed for telling the truth. Can we show as much support as possible please.

No but we can ignore you and your clueless drivel :)

Sorry OnTheList, I was directing that at the timewaster above you. I'm switching on my tedious man filter now :)

Id also like to read women discussing this without constant demands for evidence from someone who refuses to accept any and won't provide any themselves.

I did provide some evidence including the words of the original researcher.

And I did that because Pratchet initially brought up: Let's not forget the other findings about male criminal patterns retained after transition.

And Ereshkigal said Let's hear the evidence for why they wouldn't have a male pattern of criminality, SMG.

Yep. The claim that they are any different is for the claimant to prove. It has not been satisfactorily demonstrated.

There is no claimant here. You don't have to 'satisfactorily demonstrate' that people are innocent. You have to prove they are guilty.

JoanSummers No but we can ignore you and your clueless drivel

You can. And I can continue to refute misinformation and take part in the forum

Oh I wondered when he would show up. Do you think he is paid by the word?

Please someone just give him his blankety blank cheque book and pen.

I claim my Crackerjack pencil!

I was stood in the supermarket at the weekend with an armful of groceries. I commented to the woman next to me in the queue that I felt like I was on Crackerjack & really needed to be given a cabbage... she looked at me blankly and then I felt a bit older too!

Checked in to see if there's more on Posie, instead we're back to arguing the toss about male patterns of criminality...

The Swedish study only and exclusively dealt with post-op transsexuals. That's a minute number of people in the UK and entirely irrelevant to the self-id debate.

The literature on male sexuality, male violence and male behaviour is extensive, internationally there's empirical evidence from hundreds of thousands of men proving conclusively the danger they can pose to women. Non-op, non-med transidentified men are unadalterated men, however much they express femme. They show male pattern sexuality and male pattern criminality at the same rate as all other men and therefore do not belong in female spaces.

There's also a contemporary study from San Francisco (2002) which showed a far far worse crime rate for trans people than the Swedish one - from memory, more than 2 in 3 of the subjects had actually been in prison at some point. It showed extremely clearly that unsupported trans people may turn to survival crime incl prostitution and violent crime in greater numbers than the general population.

And then there's the Ontario study from 2012. It included post-op transsexuals as well as self-identified transwomen who used their male appendage to have penetrative sex with women. IOW, the latter showed unambiguous male pattern sexuality and there's no reason to assume they wouldn't also show male pattern criminality.

At the same rate as other men. Not worse than other men. Not singularly dangerous or perverted or devious. Just the same as other men.

No better or worse.

Which is why I do not consent to sharing a space with any non-med, non-op transidentified man where I am in a vulnerable position.

Is that what you do every time someone challenges misinformation, and posts factually correct decent arguments?

Degenerate into silliness, ridicule and insults?

(Wasn't referring to your post Charlie)

I felt like I was on Crackerjack & really needed to be given a cabbage... she looked at me blankly and then I felt a bit older too!

Teehee. I actually do have a Blue Peter badge, you know. I got one for writing a story and sending it in. I wonder if they still do them.

Indeed CharlieParley. Furthermore, the Ministry of Justice have confirmed Fair Play for Women's statistics that nearly half of transwomen in prison are there for sex offences.

I've got to say, it pisses me off that transactivists' argument tries to drill down into the most irrelevant minutiae in order to prove a point that is blisteringly obvious to everyone else.

Their tactic to stop debate is to threaten and punch women.

Men who threaten and punch women, then trying to claim that they are women and we are wrong for objecting to them in our space.

The answer is no. And that's the end of it. That's not beginning of a negotiation.

Article from the weekend
www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/scottish-news/transgender-killers-kept-apart-after-12493525

re Sophie Eastwood & Alex Stewart
(extract)
"Despite their new female identities neither have had surgery, and fellow inmates complained that they felt intimidated around the pair because of their behaviour.

A source said: “It got beyond the joke. No one has a problem with transgender people. But they do have a problem when they suspect that the transgender identities are being used as a way of getting a cushier time in prison. It totally undermines real transgender prisoners.”

discussed here:
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3242264-Transgender-murders-in-Scottish-womens-prison

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3242178-Transgender-killers-split-up-by-prison-chiefs

Charlie do you have links to the SAN Fran and the Ontario research?

SupermatchGame

So the real control group would be males receiving counselling as these TIMs so one can actually separate the effect of transitioning from the effect of counselling. And one would need to also differentiate transsexuals from transgender.

Furthermore, I don't remember the details of the study but it must be pointed out that your screenshot only says something like "there is no increased risk of crime after transitioning". Well, that doesn't say anything about decreased risk. I.e. it doesn't say TIMs are less violent. Maybe you chose the wrong screenshot, idk, but this does not really support your argument.

For what it's worth, I would not be surprised if crime patterns are correlated with testosterone levels. And guess what wouldn't be needed under self ID? HRT. Admittedly that's just speculation, although supported by evidence of voyeurism e.g Target or multiple cases of men claiming womanhood being sent to female prisons or simply observing Twitter and the sheer amount of hatred and threats and abuse TIMs direct at women that do not comply.

Certainly, Elletorro

The Ontario study:

High heterogeneity of HIV-related sexual risk among transgender people in Ontario, Canada: a province-wide respondent-driven sampling survey

The San Francisco study:

HIV Prevalence, Risk Behaviors, Health Care Use, and Mental Health Status of Transgender Persons: Implications for Public Health Intervention

MrGHardy
So the real control group would be males receiving counselling as these TIMs so one can actually separate the effect of transitioning from the effect of counselling. And one would need to also differentiate transsexuals from transgender.

No one will do an RCT, it wouldn't be ethical. But it isn't the job of research to prove innocence. That isn't how the law work either.

Furthermore, I don't remember the details of the study but it must be pointed out that your screenshot only says something like "there is no increased risk of crime after transitioning". Well, that doesn't say anything about decreased risk. I.e. it doesn't say TIMs are less violent. Maybe you chose the wrong screenshot, idk, but this does not really support your argument.

The screenshot came before the rest of the results - indicating that the similarity in crime rate between trans women and male population was only for those that transitioned before 1989 (when trans health and mental health care was less effective - her words), not after.

The researchers looked at differences between trans and cis population (her choice of words). She clarified in interview before 1989 trans women had a similar level of crime to males. I.e trans women transitioners after 1989 did not have an increased crime rate compared to 'cis' females.

For what it's worth, I would not be surprised if crime patterns are correlated with testosterone levels. And guess what wouldn't be needed under self ID? HRT.

Yes I agree testosterone has a role in aggression etc. I'm not arguing for or supporting self ID. This was in response to discussing medically transitioned trans women.

There is no claimant here. You don't have to 'satisfactorily demonstrate' that people are innocent. You have to prove they are guilty.

That's because the prosecutor makes the claim that someone is alleged to have committed a crime. They are making a positive claim, and need to prove it, or it's not accepted, and so are you and so do you. We know trans identified males are male. We know males commit violent and sexual crime at a much higher rate than females. If you want to claim there is a difference between this subset of males and males as a class, which you do, you are making an extraordinary claim and the onus is on you to prove it.

As far as I know, and I'm not a statistician, there were two cohorts. But the results were not separated in those two cohorts.

The results mixed up the cohorts. And the one that is causing all the controversy was mixed sex.

The author of the study did not separate out the transwomen in that cohort in order to make a distinction. So no conclusion can be drawn. And, as far as I'm aware, the numbers were too small to be statistically significant anyway.

When she did separate out transwomen, they showed male pattern criminality.

I understand it's a survey that people dispute.

Although prison statistics back it up. Cross dressing, which is every bit as authentically trans as gender dysphoria, apparently, is the most prevalent fetish amongst male prison inmates.

A man convicted of manslaughter was recently sent back to prison on the basis of his attempted rape of a woman and his justification that he did it because of his gender dysphoria.

It really is not women's job to make a distinction between genuine transwomen and those who some people think may not be.

Good Lord, if we could separate men into predators and non-predators we would've bloody done it by now. And we could all go home.

That's because the prosecutor makes the claim that someone is alleged to have committed a crime.

You're making a claim without evidence. There is no evidence that trans women have a male pattern of criminality for those that transitioned after 1989.

If you want to claim there is a difference between this subset of males and males as a class, which you do, you are making an extraordinary claim and the onus is on you to prove it.

I don't have to prove anything. I was refuting a claim that a study showed trans women are as high a risk for committing violent crime as men. That study showed - in the researchers own words: that for the latter group (1989 – 2003), differences in mortality, suicide attempts and crime disappear. This means that for the 1989 to 2003 group, we did not find a male pattern of criminality.

Indeed CharlieParley. Furthermore, the Ministry of Justice have confirmed Fair Play for Women's statistics that nearly half of transwomen in prison are there for sex offences.

You would think the penny would drop at that point, but no, let us quibble over the details of a study to avoid the elephant in the room that we call male violence. The greatest human rights crisis the world has ever known.

SupermatchGame Wed 09-May-18 17:04:50

Joan, Lang

"So you don't think it is appropriate that people should be able to challenge potentially damaging lies and misinformation? Particularly when it is damaging to trans women?

You can't bully me into silence."

How is it possible that you do not get that you are bullying people just like this every effing day. Look up DARVO and then go ahead and wash the mirror again and again.

Am I the only one who usually just scrolls past SmGs male dominance displays?