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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

See all MNHQ comments on this thread

Posie: truthcrime harassment continues

344 replies

Pratchet · 06/05/2018 08:42

Susie Green from Mermaids has appealed against the CPS decision not to pursue Posie.

Posie described truthfully what Susie Green did to her child in Thailand at the age of sixteen: surgery involving the removal of genitals, a decision so shocking to the Thai government they raised the age bar for such operations to 18.

A woman is being pursued and harassed for telling the truth. Can we show as much support as possible please.

OP posts:
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ALittleBitofVitriol · 07/05/2018 23:20

SupermatchGame
Both.

Pratchet · 07/05/2018 23:21

Let's not forget the other findings about male criminal patterns retained after transition.

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GardenGeek · 07/05/2018 23:32

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

SupermatchGame · 07/05/2018 23:54

Let's play... Guess the Non-Offence! It'll never catch on.

SupermatchGame · 08/05/2018 00:14

Steady Pratchet..... don't go spreading misinformation. That Swedish study found no increase in criminality in trans women compared to non trans women for those treated after 1989. Here is the researchers own words in recent ama (you surely know this?). No time to edit so just copy and paste:

[–]CeciliaDhejneHelmyMD | Karolinska University Hospital in Sweden[S
Regarding criminality there are only results from either both trans women and trans men and displayed for the whole period 1973-2003 and for the periods of 1973-1988 and the 1989-2003. If one is only intrested in transwomen data is only available for the whole period. For only assigned men who had transition 1973-2003 they had committed more crimes than cis women and more violent crime than cis women. The number of transwomen who had comited crime during this period was 32, and the number who had comitted violent crime were 14. Most likely some of the 32 transwomen who had comitted a any crime had also comitted a violent crime sop you can not add the numbers. Having a male pattern means that they did not differ regarding any crime or violent crime if compared with cis men. However even if I can't say how it is for trans women specific one could see that if the whole group (tran women and trans men) are displayed together there is a very positive time trend. So after 1989 the transgender men and women together did not differ from cis gender men and women regarding comitting any crime or violent crime. This means that the trans population was not more criminal then the cis population after 1989. The actual number of any crimes for the transgroup is for 1973-2003 60, for 1973-1988 38 and for 1989-2003 22. The numbers of violent crimes are for 1972-2003 14, for 1973-1988 10 1989-2003 4.

My and co workers study can not answer why we saw an increased suicidality during the whole and first studied period. But notice that there was not an increase in suicide for the last period. Other studies mention below have showed that external factors such as minority stress contributes to suicidality in the transgender group. Thank you for your question and I am happy I was invited to AMA.Thank you for your question and I am happy I was invited to AMA.

I am aware of some of the misinterpretation of the study in Plos One. Some are as you say difficult to keep track since they are not published in scientific journals. I am grateful to friends all over the world who notify me of publications outside the scientific world. I do answer some of them but I can’t answer all.

I have no good recommendation what to do. I have said many times that the study is not design to evaluate the outcome of medical transition. It DOES NOT say that medical transition causes people to commit suicide. However it does say that people who have transition are more vulnerable and that we need to improve care. I am happy about that it has also been seen that way and in those cases help to secure more resources to transgender health care.

On a personal level I can get both angry and sad of the misinterpretations and also sometimes astonished that some researcher don’t seem to understand some basics about research methology.

And Previous interview with Cristan Williams:

Dhejne: The individual in the image who is making claims about trans criminality, specifically rape likelihood, is misrepresenting the study findings. The study as a whole covers the period between 1973 and 2003. If one divides the cohort into two groups, 1973 to 1988 and 1989 to 2003, one observes that for the latter group (1989 – 2003), differences in mortality, suicide attempts and crime disappear. This means that for the 1989 to 2003 group, we did not find a male pattern of criminality.

As to the criminality metric itself, we were measuring and comparing the total number of convictions, not conviction type. We were not saying that cisgender males are convicted of crimes associated with marginalization and poverty. We didn’t control for that and we were certainly not saying that we found that trans women were a rape risk. What we were saying was that for the 1973 to 1988 cohort group and the cisgender male group, both experienced similar rates of convictions. As I said, this pattern is not observed in the 1989 to 2003 cohort group.

The difference we observed between the 1989 to 2003 cohort and the control group is that the trans cohort group accessed more mental health care, which is appropriate given the level of ongoing discrimination the group faces. What the data tells us is that things are getting measurably better and the issues we found affecting the 1973 to 1988 cohort group likely reflects a time when trans health and psychological care was less effective and social stigma was far worse.

LightofaSilveryMoon · 08/05/2018 00:20

Word salad. That is all.

SupermatchGame · 08/05/2018 00:24

Fair enough. It's late. I just pasted. Here is the important bit:

If one divides the cohort into two groups, 1973 to 1988 and 1989 to 2003, one observes that for the latter group (1989 – 2003), differences in mortality, suicide attempts and crime disappear. This means that for the 1989 to 2003 group, we did not find a male pattern of criminality.

LightofaSilveryMoon · 08/05/2018 00:27

You have not provided any reputable, verifiable sources for me to investigate.

GardenGeek · 08/05/2018 00:30

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

GardenGeek · 08/05/2018 00:30

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Pratchet · 08/05/2018 00:31

Do you mind me not typing it all out

Posie: truthcrime harassment continues
OP posts:
Pratchet · 08/05/2018 00:34

#science

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jellycat · 08/05/2018 00:36

That is contradictory. The author also states:

For only assigned men who had transition 1973-2003 they had committed more crimes than cis women and more violent crime than cis women. The number of transwomen who had comited crime during this period was 32, and the number who had comitted violent crime were 14. Most likely some of the 32 transwomen who had comitted a any crime had also comitted a violent crime sop you can not add the numbers. Having a male pattern means that they did not differ regarding any crime or violent crime if compared with cis men.

The rest of the text is confusing, but the author seems to be suggesting that the later group showed less criminality because they had better access to mental health care. So that would suggest that ongoing access to good mental health care is required. Which in the UK at the moment is hardly a foregone conclusion.

jellycat · 08/05/2018 00:37

My comment was addressed to SupermatchGame BTW.

Pratchet · 08/05/2018 00:50

I think the screenshot is clear enough.

Better access to mental health care is a confounding variable. Unless you compare to a cohort of non transitioned men who had the same access to better mental health care. The finding in the screenshot stands. It's clear.

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Pratchet · 08/05/2018 00:50

Thanks Jelly, mine too.

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BewitchedBotheredandBewildered · 08/05/2018 01:24

Sorry, can't read whole thread now.

Wouldn't wish this on anyone but total support for Posie.

More than happy to up financial contribution if necessary.

cromeyellow0 · 08/05/2018 01:47

@ALittleBitofVitriol
Oh that Dr Crane, well done for catching the connection! What a tragic story.

Italiangreyhound · 08/05/2018 03:13

Just watched Max...

www.youtube.com/watch?v=t7S5aoHk3PI&app=desktop

Poor Max, I wish her well in the future... Thanks

womanformallyknownaswoman · 08/05/2018 04:35

I hope Posie gets the legal and other support she needs as she is being targeted relentlessly

RainbowFairiesHaveNoPlot · 08/05/2018 09:28

Posie you are bloody awesome (and frigging gorgeous too)... dealing with all this where they'd have scared (and probably have scared) a lot of women away with their threats.

(Also anyone who can achieve a cream sofa not looking like an explosion in a sofa cushion factory in a house with children is a bloody miracle worker)

Thanksforthatamazingpost · 08/05/2018 10:01

I am so glad I wasn't the only one who got distracted by the nice sofa.

And the wall without fingermarks on.

R0wantrees · 08/05/2018 10:02

Pink News exclusive:
"In 2017, the former Equalities Minister, Justine Greening, announced plans to review the 2004 law, which allows transgender people to gain recognition by changing their legal documents – but the process has since been delayed multiple times.

This has been partly due to pressure from the right-wing press.

Multiple departures from the ministerial position have also contributed to the confusion.

Mordaunt is now the third Equalities Minister since the announcement of this review — following the departure in April of Amber Rudd — it is currently unclear when the review will begin and how much of a priority it will be.

Reports last year stated that the review would begin in spring 2018, but there has been no further information about the review’s time frame.

In the open letter, the groups have highlighted the “humiliating” process the current law requires to change the gender on legal documents, as well as pointing out that transgender people face discrimination and abuse that remains unchallenged while the government delays the review.

“The longer this delay goes on, the longer abusive invective is allowed to continue unchallenged by a government who rightly pride themselves on robustly speaking up for its minority citizens,” the letter states....." continues
www.pinknews.co.uk/2018/05/07/exclusive-the-government-is-enabling-abuse-by-not-reforming-gender-recognition-groups-tell-new-minister/

link to current thread:
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3242812--Amnesty-International-Mermaids-and-Stonewall-have-signed-an-open-letter-to-Penny-Mordaunt-stating-the-importance-of-reforming-the-Gender-Recognition-Act

SupermatchGame · 08/05/2018 20:48

The finding in the screenshot stands. It's clear.

You quoted out of context - even in the paper itself it states:

this was, however, only significant in the group who underwent sex reassignment before 1989.

You deliberately miss that out.

That is important because the transitioners from 30 to 40 years ago were subject to a time when: trans health and psychological care was less effective and social stigma was far worse. So not just mental health, but trans health.

Violent crime includes slapping someone in Sweden (not that that is ok). It also includes robbery and verbal threats.

However many times this is stated - verbatim:

This means that for the 1989 to 2003 group, we did not find a male pattern of criminality.

You don't want to believe it because it doesn't fit with your ideology.

Interestingly she also reported that crime went up in female to males. But you never mention that.

You have not provided any reputable, verifiable sources for me to investigate.

Light, Pratchet why don't you contact the researcher yourselves and ask her? If you want to investigate and you think this is important for the protection of women and girls - why don't you get it straight from the horses mouth? She makes her contact details public these days:

ki.se/en/people/cecdhe

?

Ereshkigal · 08/05/2018 20:51

Let's hear the evidence for why they wouldn't have a male pattern of criminality, SMG.