Posie: truthcrime harassment continues

[Pratchet]

Susie Green from Mermaids has appealed against the CPS decision not to pursue Posie.

Posie described truthfully what Susie Green did to her child in Thailand at the age of sixteen: surgery involving the removal of genitals, a decision so shocking to the Thai government they raised the age bar for such operations to 18.

A woman is being pursued and harassed for telling the truth. Can we show as much support as possible please.

^
This was in response to FermatsTheorem.

In this connection, here's a very moving video by a young person discussing regret over double mastectomy:

(A story that won't appear in any documentaries celebrating transkids.)

Chrome what a lovely young woman. She is actually brave. Confronting all those feelings.

Yes! How anybody could endorse encouraging teens to do this is beyond comprehension. And euphemisms like "top surgery" conceal what is actually being done.

The NHS has not enabled this over here. But I'm sure that if new legislation gives people a right to "change legal sex" at 16 or even earlier (in UK or in Scotland), that will entail having access to the corresponding surgery.

I watched that video earlier today and found it incredibly moving.

Especially the very honest assessment about not regretting it for one, two or three years.

It took being in a emotionally good place to finally confront what had happened and how she really felt about it.

I was very glad she confirmed she was now in a very supportive relationship and feeling able to process her feelings.

Loving the video. Great advice anyone can follow.

Not chromosomally no.

That IS sex. So no.

Everything else you mention is not changing sex - it’s fiddling with hormones and physical appearance.

None of those fiddlings have anything like a decent evidence base to show us what the long term consequences are either. Hormones are powerful drivers of many rumours for example. I would not be surprised at increased cancer rates down the line, we just haven’t had the time or the sample size to see it yet.

Very sad video. There needs to be much more awareness of just how grim puberty is for many kids.

The harm that these surgeries can cause is horrifying. This poor girl deserved more than affirmation. She deserved to face caring opposition and compassionate rejection of her desire to remove parts of her own healthy body

And she was failed, institutionally failed.

That’s why it’s important to be able to criticise the CEO of a charity that purports to support children and their parents facing the difficult questions of how to treat gender dysphoria.

The integrity of the CEO and her organisation must be brought into question when there is evidence that she decided to circumvent UK laws and took the diagnosis and treatment of her child into her own hands. These surgeries have enormous potential to cause horrific harm. She doesn’t appear to have even acknowledged that her behaviour was reckless and endangered her child’s long term prospects.

We need to be able to talk about this as if we don’t mention what she did then we are making unfounded accusations. This evidence of her unfitness to be in a position of influence and power.

Just seen that poise has had her twitter a/c locked for being transphobic & 'looksist' whatever the hell that is.

'Looksist' is a term that the Katie nutcase uses.

Looksist?!! [

OK, if we are going to make up words, can I make a case for ditching "transphobia" (I don't think anyone is scared of transpeople - TRAs may be scary, but not transpeople in general)? And replacing it with something closer to what I think the original intention of the word was, ie to convey a deep-seated prejudice towards transpeople. So transist.

I might start using it and see if it will catch on

Looksist, I think refers to the fact that we are not supposed to point out that a man in a dress, still looks like a man. I'm going to go out on a limb and suggest that criticizing a woman's looks will still be perfectly fine.

plectrum just spotted that too. I have finally signed up and didn't know what to do so searched for Posie and found her suspended. I asked to follow Miranda but not sure why she would allow me. Not sure what to try next...

pombear I’ve had a go:

SG - I''m confused. Why is there such a big difference for you between FGM at' any age' and genital 'reassignment' (for me, that's a euphamism - it's still mutilation in the true sense of 'GM', just a more politically correct term when you're talking about children and trans).

Reassignment is an evidence based treatment commissioned by the NHS to treat a condition. Not for children no. But that is why GR is not the same as FGM.

If children don't fully mature until late teens/early 20s, how can surgery be right for trans kids but not for FGM 'at any age' in your opinion?
Not surgery for trans kids but people in their late teens/ early 20s aren’t kids and can consent to treatment, including evidence based treatment provided by the NHS. FGM isn’t a treatment it’s a harmful illegal practice that isn’t done for medical purposes.


Does FGM/genital 'reassignment' not facilitate the same outcome - less ability to fully experience adult sexuality?


Not for many trans people who are unable to have sexual relationships because they're so uncomfortable with their genitalia? I wouldn’t have said it leads to them being less able to fully experience adult sexuality. If a trans woman is dysphoric with having a penis and feels it's more appropriate for her to experience sex (neo)vaginally, or if a trans man is more comfortable with having a penis of some sort constructed, then surely it can lead to more ability for them to experience some sexual intimacy with a partner?


In terms of 'changing sex', I'm also confused by your explanation:

Hormones- how does taking synthetic hormones change your biological sex? Surely it just changes the hormone level of your base biology?


You can get prescription estradiol and testosterone that is bioidentical. Changes the sex of the hormones circulating in your blood stream and binding to hormone receptor sites round body. So yes I guess the way you said it, but isn't that changing the sex of the circulating hormones?

Biological aspect? Do you mean surgery? But no surgery changes your sex - it just mimics the openings, identifiying body parts etc of the other sex. They're not actually the same as those body parts?

I meant a trans man can grow a beard and their voice breaks - biological changes. Trans women grow breast tissue, lose muscle mass.



Legal- fair enough. Someone has said on a bit of paper you're the 'other sex'. It doesn't magically make your body the other sex.
No it just changes another aspect of sex - the sex that you are legally categorised or treated as.



Physiological? I don't understand. Do you mean the effects of taking hormones to mimic the other biological sex's presentation?

Bad choice of word.. it's similar to biological. I think I meant change aspects of anatomy - i.e.. invert penis to create neo-vagina. Construct phallus.

Day-to-day perception? If you're successful in mimicing the sterotypes and expectations of the 'other' sex, I guess this means you've 'changed sex'? Is this what you mean? So if I convince others by my dress and stance that I'm 'a man', I've 'changed sex'?


No I meant like in the way these men have changed some of their anatomical and biological aspects so that they appear as men:

At least to most people in day to day life. If they are perceived as men then to those people they are men. Matching how they perceive themselves. I think describing them or their lived experience as just 'mimicking' is a bit dismissive and trivialising imo.

I agreed chromosomally no change, but changes in lots of ways that may be important to them and make up elements of ‘sex’.

To whom does it matter, when and why. Well, I guess, when you're referring to sex-based spaces and services, it matters highly. Do those occasions not matter to you ever?

Yes some occasions matter. A transitioned woman with a surgically constructed vagina and considerably lower muscle strength would be vulnerable in similar ways to non-trans women. So would need similar sex-based services in many cases. I'm not sure it would be appropriate for those trans men above to use female spaces either?

Children, safeguarding, vulnerable women? You never seem to address their concerns in your answers.

I don’t think men, including men who are not transitioned or just put on a dress and self id as female should have access to female spaces as it could put children, women and trans women at risk. I’ve said that quite a few times.

Supermatch
I don’t think men, including men who are not transitioned or just put on a dress and self id as female should have access to female spaces as it could put children, women and trans women at risk.

There is no requirement to have surgery in order to get a GRC using the current law. A man with fully functioning male anatomy can be legally female. How would you keep him out of female spaces?

It's strange how they still act like men even after all the hormones and surgery

What does 'act like men' mean?

I don't know OldCrone. I guess that's why there are exemptions so a functioning (bepenised) person could be excluded in certain circumstances? As I understand it the equality act will still stand. I think they even said that at the Bristol meeting the other week didn't they?

Thanks for that video chromeyellow0
She is a brave and interesting person! What she said about another level of self harm was poignant.
She also mentioned Dr Crane. I'm guessing, this Dr. Crane 4thwavenow.com/2018/03/26/update-san-francisco-phalloplasty-surgeon-now-with-8-malpractice-suits/

12th rule of misogyny: Women's ability to recognize male behavior patterns is misandry.

'Act like men' means displaying stereotypical male socialisation. Prominent among which is the objectification and dismissal of women.

FGM isn’t a treatment it’s a harmful illegal practice that isn’t done for medical purposes.

Except that millions of people around the world have, until probably recently, disagreed with that. Many mothers will have held their children down because they believe it has some medical or social benefit. Doctors and midwives will have gone along with that and told you it's cleaner/healthier. It really isn't that difficult to produce a scientific study to support whatever you believe. If someone had had an agenda, they could have published something saying fgm had clear medical benefits.

Physical/surgical transition has some medical support behind it as being beneficial in treating dysphoria. Now, I'm no expect in gender dysphoria but despite knowing it helps some, there are also people who detransiton or who go on to be as unhappy post surgery. So you can't say surgical transition is this uncomplicated treatment with proven benefits. It helps some. It harms many.

You are also neglecting to understand that sexual function can be harmed by surgical transition because surgery is a really crude tool. It leads to numbness, damage, infections in some cases. It would be worth you reading some accounts on a trans forum, supermatch. These surgeries go wrong a lot.

“Considering trans activists are scrutinising my every move I am not willing to discuss further details here.”

Very wise.

Finding the right lawyer is important and don’t hesitate to get second opinions.

They are just here to provide that "other perspective" so popular among misogynists.

ALittleBit are we talking about long term post op transitioned women? Or the sorts of TRAs we saw on the video with julie bindel etc? Because yes I do see some male socialisation with them.

If someone had had an agenda, they could have published something saying fgm had clear medical benefits.

Isn't that why it's important we have good research and as much evidence and scientific enquiry as possible? I think the NHS etc would say there is reasonable evidence for transition as you say. But I don't think you would get far trying to find evidence for FGM.

It helps some. It harms many.

Cecilia Dhejne the researcher who did the 2011 Swedish study that looked at pre and post op suicide has also done a large study in detransition. (An Analysis of All Applications for Sex Reassignment Surgery in Sweden, 1960-2010: Prevalence, Incidence, and Regrets). She said in a recent interview:

"I have done study regarding people who applied to legally change back to the sex they were assigned at birth. Between 1960-2010 681 individuals were granted a new legal gender in Sweden. 15 (2.2%) of those applied for reversal to the gender they assigned at birth. During the studied period we saw a significant decline and 11/15 of the regret applications were made of before 2000. The numbers are similar to other studies from Germany. We couldn’t study the reason for that they wanted to retransition. There could be many reasons one is that it was the wrong treatment but there are many others as you mention. Never the less I don’t find the numbers alarming if compared to other medical care they are infact good."

That's quite a small detransition/ regret rate. Likely there will be more as referrals increase especially in the UK where they have really gone up. Hopefully the more gnc role models there are the less likely young people will make the wrong choice.

I agree it's no panacea and there are problems but the research reports it works out more than not, even if not perfect. It's the lesser of 2 evils for some.