State your views on trans issue/self id issues *TITLE EDITED BY MNHQ

[MipMipMip]

I've noticed that there have been quite a few comments recently where they feel anyone on here has a single view of the trans issues. It makes it easier to tar us all with the same brush and to whip up hatred in the media.

So I thought it would be a good time to do a single post each with our views. Not to try to convert anyone, just to say what your starting point is. If you want to put in a bit of background info and things you feel influence you then great. If not, also great.

We are a massive group of people and we will have different opinions. It makes us a lot harder to dismiss if we can show that.

I am a single woman, no children. I am lucky enough to have not been the victim of male violence but have seen the result of it many times. I am poor and pretty well educated (although never uni). I have no political home and family go from corbynite to Tory. I am very aware of physical differences between sexes and can be uncomfortable only with a male, although it is not triggering.

I have always used the honour system with trans women and will continue to do so. I am very opposed to self ID and while I think most of the people who would use it are mearly thoughtless I have no doubt some will exploit it. I think taking away the medical element of body disphoria, and separating trans from it, is a mistake that will have a terrible affect on individuals. I believe transition should be as a last resort when counciling etc has not worked.

I think anyone may present as they wish but if they plan to use female facilities they should have a GRC or be in the two year process for one. Surgery or chemical castration should form part of that (although I'm torn as I don't wish unnecessary surgery on anyone but I cannot understand how, if they have BD, they could stand to keep their body as it is). A person cannot change sex but out of respect I will use a female or make pronoun if they wish it (unless talking about issues where clarity of sex is needed). I will not use weird made up pronouns as I don't believe you should control someone's use of language in that way.

I have a deep sympathy for transsexuals, both for what they have been through and for getting caught up with the TRAs.i have no doubt a number of TRAs are very dangerous women hating individuals whose activities are criminal and who should be treated as such. Some scare me and I find the way the world is bowing down to their demands terrifying. I believe that only exposure to the wider world, including that for the majority there is no body disphoria and that there are no genital operations, will change things. I think when that does come out things could become violent and that innocent transsexuals will get caught up in that. I think that a lot of the TRAs will simply go back to presenting male and abandon those who have supported them.

I am happy to support trans women. I object very strongly to being an unwilling participant in someone's sexual thrills by giving them verification when they use the same changing room etc. We have seen evidence that that is happening and there needs to be a way to stop it.

We need to regain separation of transsexual and transvestite. We need to not give up the word woman as we are being erased and losing the ability to describe ourselves. There needs to be seperation on statistics etc and medical needs must be clearer.

No prison should have people of the opposite sex in it. If they present otherwise they will need to be treated separately but women should not be sacrificed. Likewise hospitals etc.

I think the way children are being treated is awful. Safeguarding is being ignored and there will be a lot of sterile people in the future who have reverted. There is a huge opportunity for abuse being created.

I think I have a moral duty to fight this as I am in a fortunate position. I know there are women there who are physically scared of violence. I know people are risking jobs and society to say things and I am proud to pay a small part. I'm scared too but not in the same way. I can speak out and so I do. I am sure elements of my views will change as time goes on. I am trying to keep myself educated and learn more. I hate that I cannot just welcome everyone but I would be doing a great disservice to millions of women if I did.

This is my view, I look forward to hearing other people's.

Forgot to say:

I think if sport is divided by sex it should continue to be. Unfortunately when you make a change it rules some things out. If you change gender you rule out competing in sport. Likewise scholarships, AWS etc should be for sex, not how you present. There is a strong argument for there being trans versions but they should not take women's.

If someone has been trans for a long time they should be welcome to speak on behalf on trans individuals. They should not be speaking for women as a woman.

Gendeg is a social construct that does a lot of damage. If it was not so strong many people, particularly lesbians, would not feel that their inability to conform is due to them being the wrong sex. It (in most cases) isn't. It's that the world is fucked up.

yep, pretty much

I wish the MRAs and TRAs would ask Mumsnet to set up boards for them to talk about themselves or go to a MRA or TRA forum instead of interrupting, harassing, and derailing, Feminists who are trying to talk about women's rights.
Particularly now that women's rights have once again been declared by males to be not only anti man but also anti trans.

I think the UK's Self-ID thing is an example of the kind of libertarianism that's evolved from Thatcherism via a resurgence in hard left politics. I don't really know what you'd call it. It's not neoliberalism because it has a socialist edge to it - conform or gtfo.

Society has become a marketplace for individual rights, where certain sets of beliefs are like consumer products... but the product that's cornered the youth market is intolerant of any principle of liberalism or any liberal idea that's not on the approved list. Maybe you could call it "totalitarian liberalism". It looks like traditional liberalism, but it isn't because the individuals concerned only tolerate the specific liberal ideas that they agree with (these areas of intolerance are paradoxically called "safe spaces"). That's why the Tories are telling Universities they have to stop no - platforming.

Is really scary, tbh. The idea of the Tories having to stand up for old-school lefty-liberals in Universities hurts my head. As a Gen Xer, we kids were the ones fighting the system of intolerance. Now the kids are trying to put all that intolerance back into the system. Animal Farm nailed it. All liberals are equal, but some liberals are more equal than others.

My views are- that trans people like everyone else should be able to live and work and participate in life free from abuse and discrimination.

That what ever they wear is up to them and that they have as much right to exist as everyone else. And that any health care and support needed is given.

But penises need to stay out of women's spaces and women's sport and any suing or protests against this is male entitlement at its finest

I will sign petitions or go on marches and be right behind any trans person who is not being treated fairly and kindly. I do not condone violence or abuse at all.

But they do need to accept their sex is and will always be male and no amount of gas lighting will change that .

And also whereas i dont believe the process should be humiliating or difficult to the extreme I don't think self ID is the answer. Afterall we have the same enemy. Violent men Why make it easier for them to have access to their prey.

Thank you, this is already showing wide variety of feeling (and why will never all be happy!) It is much harder to make accusations of bigotry when you can show we are not all thinking the same and that we all have reasons why.

It's also really interesting and giving food for thought.

I agree with all that Uterati.
I think the only reason I ever make the distinction between TS and TG, is that the latter form the majority of the TRAs and are the ones pushing for selfID. It is probably more of a firefighting response on my behalf, to extinguish the greatest threat.

As for the TS, they are really the result of a compulsory-heterosexual patriarchical society. Get rid of that, and no need to be TS (internalised homophobia).

Excellent points Nosuch

i have no issue whatsoever in people dressing how they want and taking whatever role they wish to take.
My position is that gender and the entrenched societal roles it brings is limiting and damaging.
Certain areas should stay sex segregated, including options for patients to see a male or female dr/nurse (if a choice is available), safe places such as rape crisis centres must remain male free, and this should never even have a sniff of suggestion of bigotry or transphobia around it, or it shows the true intent and agenda of those shouting about it (as is happening now).
Sports need to be sex segregated as female bodied people cannot compete fairly with male bodied people.
I think the agenda from TRAs is frightening and threatens women and girls, but somehow lots of people are sucking it all up passively in the name of progress, when it really isn't progress, taking away sex definitions will be anything but progressive for women and girls who have fought for so long to get even just a foot in the door of any sort of equality, and this is in so many areas, sport, work, medical care (some drugs can have catastrophic effects in women as the trials were carried out on men), and I was also shocked to learn that it was only relatively recent when crash test dummies weren't solely made to be male heights and weights. In so many walks of life women are seen as second class citizens, and current trans lack of debate is one more example of men rough riding over women to do what they want, bugger what women feel, after all they're only women.

You can't change sex and it's impossible to have a female brain in a male body or vice versa.

Male and female are based on reproductive role.

Transgenderism is sexist and homophobic.

There was a compromise by which women were courteous and allowed MTT is female spaces but that time has gone, and women did not destroy the compromise.

The GRA is no longer needed.

Men should be able to dress how they want without thinking they're the opposite sex.

Transing kids is abusive.

If nobody stands up for biological science above identity politics then women's sports will be completely devalued in less than a decade.

I have two x chromosomes and a reproductive system designed to produce eggs and bear young.
3.7 billion people are like me in this regard.
We make up half of the human race.
The other half of the human race are fundamentally different from us.
We are the half that have always suffered at the hands of the other half and we still do.
We deserve a name.
We deserve recognition.
We deserve rights.
We exist as objectively real people and no one can identify as us.
You either are one of us from conception and evermore or you are not.
Society should reject all efforts to redefine us in false ways.
But society has encouraged a lie instead.
The lie is intolerable.

No human can change sex.
Gender does not exist.
Transpeople have been sold a cruel lie and they have bought it. But like a pyramid scheme, the lie can only be sustained if more and more people buy the lie.
Some people will never accept the lie.
It is my hope that society will reject the lie and focus on ways to acknowledge reality and help those who struggle with it to come to terms with it, instead of trying to bend reality to fit desire.

Maybe I'll be proven wrong on this, but I don't think that anyone is born in the wrong body or the wrong gender. It's a mental health condition that develops at some point during people's lives. With the modern trans movement, it's become a trendy identity for a lot of people who don't have dysphoria.

Nobody can change sex. Someone who has surgery and hormone treatment deserves to be treated with respect for their condition, but they haven't actually changed sex. This idea that we all have an internal gender and it's more important than biological sex is obviously dangerous and regressive, and needs to be challenged.

I don't believe men can become women or vice versa. I will be polite and humour their pronouns if they are reasonable people but I do not want make bodied people in women's spaces. Transsexuals who have transitioned as fully as possible are welcome in some women's spaces in my mind but since others may disagree them we should have a third space. Transwomen will always be men to me unless they pass incredibly well and I don't notice. I am very worried by the young activists who seem violent, misogynistic and frankly rather batty and unintelligent. I hate the way they bleat about offence constantly.I object most strong to their takeover of women's words and their performance of woman.

People should be allowed to wear whatever they want, present however they like, call themselves what they like, regardless of their sex.

Gender is a prison for both men and women and we should be seeking to abolish it.

Men can't become women and women can't become men.

But if some men like pretending they're women and some women like pretending they're men, that's fine by me as long as they're not doing it for a fraudulent or nefarious purpose.

If some people feel that they're the opposite sex and can get relief from their feelings of loathing their physical bodies by taking hormones and getting operations, then I think as a last resort the NHS ought to offer them that. But it should certainly not be a first port of call and definitely not for children who aren't even allowed a tattoo.

Men should not be allowed in women's spaces because they have a very long track record of being dangerous to women. If they pass enough that no-one actually thinks they're men, then fine, no-one's going to notice anyway, but I know that the problem with this is that a) it's unfair to those who don't pass and
b) it's very subjective: I've only ever met one transwoman who passed and that was only for about 20 minutes (a bit like when you meet a foreigner who speaks such fluent English that you don't notice they're not a native speaker until about 20 minutes into the conversation)

I don't care about women in men's spaces because
a) women don't have a long track record of being dangerous to men and
b) I think it's up to men really, to say whether they care or not.

Pronouns do not belong to you. They belong to the people who are talking about you. In the words of Robbie Burns, “O, wad some Power the giftie gie us, to see oursels as others see us" - You can identify as what you like, but you cannot force everyone else to identify you in the same way. You just cannot control people's perceptions of you and this insistence on owning the words others say about you, is one of the strangest, most sinister developments in modern activsm.

Re women in men's spaces: it's up to men to solve that problem if they don't like it. We can't solve everything. Women have got enough to do keeping ourselves safe.

Plcemark

Self ID will remove sex segregated safe spaces for women. A man is born XY and remains XY no matter what, a woman is born XX and remains XX no matter what.

Put on a dress, make-up, heels whatever but don't encroach in women's spaces, they are there for a reason.

Call yourself transgender or transsexual but at the end of the day you cannot change your sex. For TIM's your 'vagina' is an inverted penis, it is not made from the same material as a natal vagina. You can't have periods, get pregnant, give birth, breastfeed, go through the menopause.

Woman is the root of female oppression and due to what we have suffered due to our sex we deserve to keep our title.

Stay out of woman's sport
Stay out of woman's refuges
Stay out of woman's prisons
Stay out of woman's changing rooms
Stay out of woman's toilets
Stay out of woman's single sex activities/groups

Do not demand we use pronouns you choose, that is making us lie, I won't lie.

TMI's want to claim everything women have fought for, erase us, displace us. NO!

Canadian women seem to have lost the war on this, American women are losing it, it seems. Now the fight has arrived in Britain finally I am enthralled as to what will happen.

This is a really interesting thread. These are my views:

You cannot change someone's sex, as nearly all their cells contain their sex chromosomes, which remain active notwithstanding manipulations of hormone levels in the adult.

I recognise a qualitative difference between transexuals with gender dysphoria and trans people. I firmly believe transexuality to be a mental illness similar to anorexia. Meanwhile, other types of trans people seem to arrive at their particular position via a variety of routes, which may be influenced by both internal and external cues. Internal causes may also occasionally include mental illness (other than transexualism), personality disorder, autism, sexual fetishism, extreme extrovertism, and transvestism; external factors would include rigid gender roles, fashion, sexual abuse, social contagion, parental pressure and homophobia.

I think it's unfair to lump them all together apart from saying no male should invade female spaces unless unanimously agreed and invited by women.

Like others, I worry about children. Puberty blockers appear to do such enormous harm, since it is hard to predict who might otherwise desist, and patients are left sterile and inorgasmic. It seems to me that these children might never mature properly, mentally, emotionally or physically. That is horrifically abusive.

Men can never be women or vice versa. They will not respect women's views on where they are welcome so should never lay claim to our spaces. I believe that people are not born in the wrong body...we may not like the one we have but its better to accept it than to make ludicrous changes to it. You may need help to accept yourself as you are! Not as a fantasy that turns you on. Fine to dress as you want but not fine to force others to believe something that is not true. Until this is accepted women will not make men welcome.

I don't accept that it's possible to change sex. Ever.

I do accept that there are some people who for their own personal reasons feel the need to identify in opposition to their actual biological sex, and I firmly believe those people are entitled to the same human rights as any other - not to be discriminated against etc in terms of housing, employment, health care etc.

I do NOT believe that a male-born person who 'identifies as a woman' somehow mystically is or could ever become a woman - I abandoned that kind of magical thinking when I was 6/7 years old, when I accepted that neither Father Christmas, the Easter Bunny or Tooth Fairy were real; I applied those same early critical thinking skills to the Catholic indoctrination I was subjected to, abandoning any belief in transubstantiation when I was aged 8/9. I'm not about to capitulate & abandon those early-developed critical thinking skills more than 40 years later, just to validate other peoples' subjective 'identities'/ personalities when they don't correlate in any way, shape or form with objective, biological reality.

I have, however, always treated any trans people I know IRL (which has been quite a few over the years) with respect, and will usually use 'preferred pronouns', unless someone's being a complete arse - it's only happened a few times, but when it does, don't expect me to be 'nice', because I won't be.

I'm personally ok accepting males who've undergone full SRS & hormone therapy into most women's spaces/services, but recognise that's not my call to make, as other women may have genuine reasons for holding different opinions on that, and I'd never seek to over-rule or devalue their perspectives.