State your views on trans issue/self id issues *TITLE EDITED BY MNHQ

[MipMipMip]

I've noticed that there have been quite a few comments recently where they feel anyone on here has a single view of the trans issues. It makes it easier to tar us all with the same brush and to whip up hatred in the media.

So I thought it would be a good time to do a single post each with our views. Not to try to convert anyone, just to say what your starting point is. If you want to put in a bit of background info and things you feel influence you then great. If not, also great.

We are a massive group of people and we will have different opinions. It makes us a lot harder to dismiss if we can show that.

I am a single woman, no children. I am lucky enough to have not been the victim of male violence but have seen the result of it many times. I am poor and pretty well educated (although never uni). I have no political home and family go from corbynite to Tory. I am very aware of physical differences between sexes and can be uncomfortable only with a male, although it is not triggering.

I have always used the honour system with trans women and will continue to do so. I am very opposed to self ID and while I think most of the people who would use it are mearly thoughtless I have no doubt some will exploit it. I think taking away the medical element of body disphoria, and separating trans from it, is a mistake that will have a terrible affect on individuals. I believe transition should be as a last resort when counciling etc has not worked.

I think anyone may present as they wish but if they plan to use female facilities they should have a GRC or be in the two year process for one. Surgery or chemical castration should form part of that (although I'm torn as I don't wish unnecessary surgery on anyone but I cannot understand how, if they have BD, they could stand to keep their body as it is). A person cannot change sex but out of respect I will use a female or make pronoun if they wish it (unless talking about issues where clarity of sex is needed). I will not use weird made up pronouns as I don't believe you should control someone's use of language in that way.

I have a deep sympathy for transsexuals, both for what they have been through and for getting caught up with the TRAs.i have no doubt a number of TRAs are very dangerous women hating individuals whose activities are criminal and who should be treated as such. Some scare me and I find the way the world is bowing down to their demands terrifying. I believe that only exposure to the wider world, including that for the majority there is no body disphoria and that there are no genital operations, will change things. I think when that does come out things could become violent and that innocent transsexuals will get caught up in that. I think that a lot of the TRAs will simply go back to presenting male and abandon those who have supported them.

I am happy to support trans women. I object very strongly to being an unwilling participant in someone's sexual thrills by giving them verification when they use the same changing room etc. We have seen evidence that that is happening and there needs to be a way to stop it.

We need to regain separation of transsexual and transvestite. We need to not give up the word woman as we are being erased and losing the ability to describe ourselves. There needs to be seperation on statistics etc and medical needs must be clearer.

No prison should have people of the opposite sex in it. If they present otherwise they will need to be treated separately but women should not be sacrificed. Likewise hospitals etc.

I think the way children are being treated is awful. Safeguarding is being ignored and there will be a lot of sterile people in the future who have reverted. There is a huge opportunity for abuse being created.

I think I have a moral duty to fight this as I am in a fortunate position. I know there are women there who are physically scared of violence. I know people are risking jobs and society to say things and I am proud to pay a small part. I'm scared too but not in the same way. I can speak out and so I do. I am sure elements of my views will change as time goes on. I am trying to keep myself educated and learn more. I hate that I cannot just welcome everyone but I would be doing a great disservice to millions of women if I did.

This is my view, I look forward to hearing other people's.

I also suspect that you can share facilities with transgender or transexual people with no difficulty whatsoever but we have the chance now to legislate to deal effectively with the odd man with ill intent.

I do think we need women-only spaces. I cannot speak for women who have religious or cultural beliefs that prevent them using mixed spaces, but I think it is important that they are not marginalised because they cannot access mainstream society. I also share concerns about women's shelters etc. I think we need to be clear that all women need the right to a men-free space.

I do think that there should be a men's rights movement that deals with real issue men face. Even where those issues are caused by their own entitlement or inadequacies - they still should have support to be more reslient, less entitled, etc. The fact that men account for 75% of suicides bothers me.

I think the rise of narcissism in society is a real concern in this debate and in relation to womens' safety generally. A lack of respect for truth and evidence are also dangerous. I am not saying those seeking self-id are any more guilty of narcissism or disinformation than anyone else. I mean that this debate has been made toxic by this wider trend in society. Coincidentally I happen to think a rise in narcissism is damaging women generally.

I find it difficult to articulate in words how the proposed changes are linked to the fact the system is stacked against women and how the changes will reinforce that reality. I don't believe this is an intended consequence of the quest for self-id. But the unintended consequence is still a harm.

Gender is a social construct
Biology is science
It is impossible to be what you are not.

Wear what you like and express your personality with whatever clothing style, name or make up that you want.

I’ll be generous in person where it feels expedient.

My hard lines are:
Medical facilities
Sports
Scholarships
Sex (or gender if people use that term) segregated spaces
Safeguarding women and children.

My view of all this is because I have realised that if I was a child today, with "progressive" parents I might have gone down the hormone route.

I wanted to be a boy all my childhood; most strangers thought I was. I wore my brothers' clothes, had short hair, spent all my time with boys, desperately wanted to be able to pee standing up. I cried the day I had to start wearing a t-shirt playing football when all the boys could go topless.

As a teenager I hated my body, my breasts, periods. As an adult I never wear make-up, heels, "girly" clothes. I'm good at "male" pursuits, maths, map-reading, diy.

And yet I'm definitely a heterosexual woman and a mother - something that many of today's gender-non-conforming girls may never get a chance to be, and that makes me both angry and sad.

I'm also a youth leader with huge concerns for safeguarding

Also: children matter. Their future health and well-being (including sexual pleasure and fertility) should be safeguarded and while I am unsure that the system of involving family court in the decision to medicate, which used to be the case in Australia, is the best one - because the family court system regularly puts children in harms way - I do think an extra layer of scrutiny is necessary.

This is an interesting thread but as it's half past one and I am more than slightly drunk it would be impolite to post facetious thoughts now.

Transwomen yes. Self-IDs no.

Whoever you are, I see you.
I will be polite and friendly HOWEVER you present AS LONG AS you don't expect me to blur my own boundaries.
My boundaries are: females (women with GRCs and natal females) & children in my loos.
Males somewhere else.
That rule applies to dorms, changing rooms and hospitals.

Bars and social spaces area free for all.

However.. If there are spaces reserved for women such as all women shortlists then THAT'S ONLY open to natal women.

Don't call me cis. I will respect your pronouns ONLY if you respect all of the above.
If you don't then its WAR.

I WON'T ROLL OVER OR GIVE YOU MY SPACE.
I WON'T LET YOU DISRESPECT ME.

We have sex segregation for all sorts of reasons but never to validate a male humans gender identity. The fact that TS/TIM/TRA exist doesn't alter the fact the women and girls want and need spaces for themselves.

My view is you can not legislate social thinking. Social attitudes have to change organically to be progressive. Attempts to legislate without consultation are dangerous particularly in this cases because this involves multiple minorities and vulnerable groups.

Not because its about identity, but because its about unintended consequences. This will change frameworks which leave certain groups and individuals who are already vulnerable even more vulnerable.

That isn't improving society which all attempts to legislate should have at their heart. This isn't about 'transphobia'. Not least because there is meaning to the term any more. It includes everything and in doing so includes nothing.

This is about something far wider. It is indicative of other parallel social changes currently happening. Its not something happening in isolation. Indeed in many respects its got nothing to do with trans rights. Its a political trojan horse. Indeed there are individuals and groups out there openly admitting this. Which is utterly terrifying. We ignore this at all our peril.

These more sinister 'trans allies' are anything but. They do not have the interests of the trans community at heart; they seek to exploit legislative changes.

This changes society from a free one to one which relies and encourages aggressive tactics as a means to lobby and achieve political goals. It moves it from one in which arguments are made, talked about and merits seen to one where the only thing that really matters is who is best connected and who is most manipulative. Intimidation moves front and centre in political circles. This does not favour minorities nor the vulnerable.

Safeguarding in general becomes harder in general in that political environment. Its not about 'protecting children from trans people' which it has been framed repeatedly in discussions. Its about how the wider cultural bubble this comes in, coupled with legislative proposals weakens frameworks. If you fear speaking the truth to power because of a culture of fear of offending (especially if that comes with legal bite) then things that should be reported are not. That's nothing to do with how you identify. The point is that identity politics in general, becomes a cloak or an excuse to hide behind. We no longer see nor judge on behaviour because of the fear of being regarded as prejudice.

There are also huge issues surrounding meaningful consent for similar reasons.

It brings ideology into medicine. That affects decision making - both ethically and financially. Whilst feelings in your head might be about your well being we are all still biological creatures. And nature does not recognise nor reflect the psychological to that extent. To ignore or be in denial of this is hugely damaging.

It takes us to a place where ideology is more important than enlightened thought and evidence. A scientific dark age where critical thought and analysis can not thrive because they are not valued because they are a deemed a threat.

Identity is such a tiny part if this. Its not about rights of trans people and ensuring they are not discriminated against. We are just led to believe it is.

The big issue us the tactics being used and what that does to society as a whole. Legislation in this atmosphere and culture takes on a different significance and meaning.

Ultimately all these forces acting together in parallel are a concern to women. They are relevant to each other for this reason. For example: You can not separate the incel movement from the trans movement. There is over lap; the how and why of that is a mute point. Its there. We must acknowledge thus, no matter how small this is. Trans people are at risk and potential victims if it, every bit as much as women for similar and differing reasons. To ignore this would be a huge folly and to show a gross lack of understanding of social change as a whole.

Reductive politics which tries to isolate policy making from society is nonsense. It is not prejudice to see this or to state the nature of the problem.

I fear in some ways that reducing it to 'I don't believe men can change sex' is not a huge amount different to a thought ending cliche like 'transwomen are women'. Its too simplistic and too restrictive. It does make it open to the accusation that its about prejudice.

For me, its about how social change is being pushed through every bit as much as what that social change is. That context matters hugely. When it is lost from the debate, you lose sight of other relevant issues.

I do feel there is a deliberate blinkering because lots of people see the moral intent behind it all. But this does not justify the means if the means have their own consequences. All this stuff about 'being the right side of history' is about turning a blind eye to the present by getting you to focus on the past. Its not that simple. Parallels from history can be found in less progressive quarters when you start to look at method rather than intent.

I don't know. I do know eyes are on this thread and their intent to censor and scream transphobia at all the people they are quoting is indicative of the problem. The problem is the method of enforcement and the belittling and devaluing of the experience and wider fears of women. These can not be removed from the conversation as being illegitimate. Women do not live in a bubble unconnected with all the other things going on in society.

One thing I find most disturbing is that young people see no problem with the methods being employed. Is that coming from ignorance, privilege or an attitude that the end justifies the means?

The answer to this particular question is important in its own right. It has different consequences depending on which it is.

To sum up the above.

You do not bring about social justice by undermining the fabric and framework that social justice was built upon.

If you do not understand the foundations on which social justice was built you can not achieve social justice.

It is a fragile thing. If you do not handle it with care or take it for granted you can destroy it.

Wow Red, I want to print that out and pat it on every lamppost on the country. Beautifully put and far better reasoned than I could ever do. Thank you.

I do not believe you can change sex. A transwoman is not a woman, however I will respect a transpersson's legal and social status if they have gone to the trouble of transitioning as fully as possible. I don't ever misgender someone or use their 'deadnames' on purpose.
Registered sex offenders should not be allowed to legally transition. They should be treated as their biological sex.
Sex segregated places to remain - toilets, changing rooms, prisons, refuges, etc
I will never accept any attempt to be defined as anything other than a woman. I will also never stop referring to female anatomy and biology using the correct terms, and whenever I feel like it. If some people find that exclusionary or upsetting in any way then tough.
Every single individual has the right to decline dating or any degree of intimate contact with any other individual , no reasons or justification required.

Natal sex is the only thing that matters, gender identity does not and can never be more important or defining than biological sex.

I have no more sympathy for transsexuals than anyone else who has work done on their bodies to fix their distress caused by their brain. I do think that hard work and counselling would be better than surgery, in all cases.

Charities that offer support to individuals in adulthood are a good thing, Lobby groups are not. Going into schools and training coercing children and adults into accepting a doublethink ideology is a dangerous thing. No public funding should ever feed into these people's hands.
There is a very sinister lack of unbiased research into all aspects of transgenderism; the causes; the risks; the statistics; impact on women and girls; all of it. I can't think of any other mass movement that has charged forward without anyone in power even raising questions.

I have no idea where all this money is coming from or how these groups have managed to influence those in power.
I think Stonewall are just trying to influence the public to stay relevant, I do not think Ruth Hunt believes men can be women. I'm pretty sure under a lie detector I don't think any women believe this.

Susie Green has appealed and asked for the CPS to review my case. I want to know who she knows in the police force for anyone to investigate me in the first place.

I will not stop exercising my right to free speech and criticise an ideology that I believe abuses children in such a life altering way.

Should have added, re sex segregated spaces, I support the provision of safe 'gender neutral' spaces, for those who feel unsafe in sex segrgated spaces, but only as a third space, never to replace womens spaces.

Also I don't much care if people feel unsafe in sex segregated spaces, there's no evidence that trans identifying males are at risk from men in male spaces.

Did you mean people or men, there. I don't get your post Posie.

Oh golly only read your last post. Reading the other now.

Posie that is outrageous. The power these people have. The claim they are oppressed in any way is an absolute lie.

I want trans people to live a safe and happy life with full access to society.

I believe they can achieve that without colonising women’s spaces and identities to the point of denying biological facts.

I believe we need third spaces for those who identify as the opposite sex.

I think the definitions of sex and gender need to be written into law.

I think everyone should be free to wear the clothes they want, have the name they want, love and marry who they want, openly and freely and with no discrimination.

I think kids are kids and gender stereotypes in childhood are fuelling ROGD. I believe pushing young children and teens down the trans route is abusive.

I believe there needs to be significant amounts of medical gatekeeping to transition to ensure that it is genuinely the best course of action for a patient with gender dysphasia.

I think the people who are claiming you don’t need to have dysphoria to be trans are chancers.

*dysphoria. Autocorrect, I do so hate thee.

I’m torn about self ID.
I think with some adjustment it could in principle could be better than the current system. It could cut down long complicated processes that are humiliating and unnecessary. I think trans people deserve to have the right to dress, be addressed and behave however they feel comfortable and we should respect that. However, I also think people who have male biology should not compete in women’s sport and people who have male biology and therefor male propensity to commit sex crimes, should not be put in women’s prisons or be given the same access to vulnerable women.
I don’t debate on mumsnet because of all the missgendering and the ‘shouting down/mockery’ of people who have a slightly different opinion on the trans debate.

Transwomen are men

Transmen are women

Changing sex is impossible

Intersex people are not transgender

Clothes, make up, toys, hobbies etc are not the preserve of any one sex

Women are oppressed because of their biology

All people deserve the same rights.

Dorade that's basically it

No to transgenderism-its a joke-men playing dress up and then believing they are entitled to invade womens spaces that are given protection based on a sex and then trying to ruin lives by hurling accusations of transphobia whenever we try to discuss it in a reasonable way-no way-it is the thin end of a wedge-i will not support it. However i will support those who have gender dyshoria or identify with women but respect that sex is a line that cant be crossed however much we might like it to. Moreover i would want my children to feel free to explore their sexuality and how they present to the world in their respected sexes without feeling the pressure of labelling themselves trans if they are not girly girls or masculine boys. It could be progressive the trans movement but the way i see it now it is harmful to both males and females in reinforcing gender stereotypes as well as being homophobic and women hating. Shame on mumsnet for kowtowing to tras.