State your views on trans issue/self id issues *TITLE EDITED BY MNHQ

[MipMipMip]

I've noticed that there have been quite a few comments recently where they feel anyone on here has a single view of the trans issues. It makes it easier to tar us all with the same brush and to whip up hatred in the media.

So I thought it would be a good time to do a single post each with our views. Not to try to convert anyone, just to say what your starting point is. If you want to put in a bit of background info and things you feel influence you then great. If not, also great.

We are a massive group of people and we will have different opinions. It makes us a lot harder to dismiss if we can show that.

I am a single woman, no children. I am lucky enough to have not been the victim of male violence but have seen the result of it many times. I am poor and pretty well educated (although never uni). I have no political home and family go from corbynite to Tory. I am very aware of physical differences between sexes and can be uncomfortable only with a male, although it is not triggering.

I have always used the honour system with trans women and will continue to do so. I am very opposed to self ID and while I think most of the people who would use it are mearly thoughtless I have no doubt some will exploit it. I think taking away the medical element of body disphoria, and separating trans from it, is a mistake that will have a terrible affect on individuals. I believe transition should be as a last resort when counciling etc has not worked.

I think anyone may present as they wish but if they plan to use female facilities they should have a GRC or be in the two year process for one. Surgery or chemical castration should form part of that (although I'm torn as I don't wish unnecessary surgery on anyone but I cannot understand how, if they have BD, they could stand to keep their body as it is). A person cannot change sex but out of respect I will use a female or make pronoun if they wish it (unless talking about issues where clarity of sex is needed). I will not use weird made up pronouns as I don't believe you should control someone's use of language in that way.

I have a deep sympathy for transsexuals, both for what they have been through and for getting caught up with the TRAs.i have no doubt a number of TRAs are very dangerous women hating individuals whose activities are criminal and who should be treated as such. Some scare me and I find the way the world is bowing down to their demands terrifying. I believe that only exposure to the wider world, including that for the majority there is no body disphoria and that there are no genital operations, will change things. I think when that does come out things could become violent and that innocent transsexuals will get caught up in that. I think that a lot of the TRAs will simply go back to presenting male and abandon those who have supported them.

I am happy to support trans women. I object very strongly to being an unwilling participant in someone's sexual thrills by giving them verification when they use the same changing room etc. We have seen evidence that that is happening and there needs to be a way to stop it.

We need to regain separation of transsexual and transvestite. We need to not give up the word woman as we are being erased and losing the ability to describe ourselves. There needs to be seperation on statistics etc and medical needs must be clearer.

No prison should have people of the opposite sex in it. If they present otherwise they will need to be treated separately but women should not be sacrificed. Likewise hospitals etc.

I think the way children are being treated is awful. Safeguarding is being ignored and there will be a lot of sterile people in the future who have reverted. There is a huge opportunity for abuse being created.

I think I have a moral duty to fight this as I am in a fortunate position. I know there are women there who are physically scared of violence. I know people are risking jobs and society to say things and I am proud to pay a small part. I'm scared too but not in the same way. I can speak out and so I do. I am sure elements of my views will change as time goes on. I am trying to keep myself educated and learn more. I hate that I cannot just welcome everyone but I would be doing a great disservice to millions of women if I did.

This is my view, I look forward to hearing other people's.

There are posts on this very thread that this is some sort of MRA agenda. Which as far as I know it’s not.

I don't think there is an overarching agenda from one place, more it ticks a lot of boxes for different groups and ideologies. Supporting aspects of trans ideology then becomes opportunistic. If you are big pharma then it's $$$, if you're a misogynistic MRA then it's enjoyment over the treatment of women, if you're a TV exec then it's big viewing figures from the latest trend etc....

It's a perfect storm of awful, honestly. If there was just one cause it would be a lot easier to push back against.

Look I obviously am not a natural bedfellow of feminism, but I don’t actually want to see women raped, assaulted or beaten up.

What you are saying about circumventing safeguarding/gatekeeping really rings a bell. Is it part of the “we don’t need experts” thing do you think?

Individualism over any loyalty to what is best for society? Maybe we have become so tribal that society has disintegrated so safeguarding etc isn’t respected?

Very much so. All part of the same thing.

'We don't need more experts' is a political exploitation of a known failure in an existing system. Instead of trying to fix the system and work on where it has weaknesses and blind spots to improve it, the mentality is to destroy the entire system.

In doing so it, it exposes everyone to the problems and forces the system was built to protect everyone.

Its stuff like dehumanisation using language that are being used to undermine. And narratives like 'they were too stupid' / 'they were too lazy' / 'they were too uneducated' to be deserving of protecting in some way. Stuff like words 'chavs' and stuff like 'racist leavers' and stuff like 'workshy immigrants'. All this 'othering' which takes many forms. Its driving a wedge between people rather than encouraging them to talk and communicate.

The TRA agenda for all its noise about promoting inclusiveness and equally does exactly the opposite. Its obsessed with classification and putting people into boxes. Its 'them and us' language is stark. It reduces people to enemies.

At its heart is this 'collective individualism' where the rights of the individual (identity) over ride the protection of the most vulnerable in any situation (social responsibility).

All part of wider current politics.

And yes because it is, its far harder to challenge effectively.

There are posts on this very thread that this is some sort of MRA agenda. Which as far as I know it’s not.

I think the point being made hereabouts is that extremist TRA and extremist MRA are just different ways of expressing/promoting male dominance/disorder. I think we're saying that the patriarchal penis may announce itself in different ways but it's still the patriarchal penis announcing itself!

At its heart is this 'collective individualism' where the rights of the individual (identity) over ride the protection of the most vulnerable in any situation (social responsibility).

YY to this. It's what I said upthread - Glitter Thatcherism, right? I can never understand why adherents see themselves as of the left.

It's weird that so many TRAs call themselves Marxists. If Marx ever wrote an essay titled "How to get your own way by harassing and intimidating everyone while grifting online so you don't have to get a job" I must have missed it.

YY to this. It's what I said upthread - Glitter Thatcherism, right? I can never understand why adherents see themselves as of the left.

Post modern Thatcherites. Tell them this and many would spontaneously combust.

The authoritarianism is certainly striking. I've never seen a group of people so consistently unable to tolerate even the slightest disagreement.

It's weird that so many TRAs call themselves Marxists. If Marx ever wrote an essay titled "How to get your own way by harassing and intimidating everyone while grifting online so you don't have to get a job" I must have missed it.

This is straight out of the Marxist playbook. Setup a privileged vs oppressed class. Foster resentment, sit back and watch the fireworks.

I must admit I’m almost impressed as setting up women as remotely privileged has been a holy grail of MRAs, TRAs have managed it almost overnight!

But enough is enough if this goes any further women and children are screwed.

I am a scientist.
I am a liberal.
I have a trans child (now adult) and have watched through the years as their struggle to define themselves has been all consuming. They went through 'I feel different...I am bisexual...I am gay...I am non-binary to I am binary trans over the course of the last 6 years: throughout puberty and into young adulthood. I love my child. They are putting their life on hold until they can more completely transition, leave our small community and become who they believe they are. I completely understand why anyone with our family experience would suggest anything to make this process less painful/protracted.
However, I am also very aware that my child's mental health struggles are not entirely due to their gender dysphoria, and I would have been negligent as a parent if we had rushed into gender reassignment too soon. I believe that the degree of psychological and medical gatekeeping and review which is currently part of the formal transition process is very very important. The delays it causes are painful, and this should be addressed, but the process itself is necessary. Certainly once gender counselling began it helped my child enormously and was not, as some seem to believe, merely an underlining of the desire to transition, but forced my child to really think about the ramifications of what they wanted, and do the necessary cost/benefit. I believe that self-ID (without the necessary checks/support in place) is not the ethically correct approach for young adult transpeople, even if it is what they think they need.
I have no problem with using people's preferred pronouns: well, I misgender by accident sometimes but never deliberately and I would not do so.

I would stand with transfolk campaigning for more gender neutral spaces, for better funded clinics and therapy, for more mental health services. I would stand with transfolk against violence, against transphobia, if we agreed on the definition.
I do not believe that one marginalised group's rights should trump another's.
I do not believe that women's spaces should become gender neutral spaces while the men's do not. I don't believe that the exemptions to the equalities act which are there to safeguard women should be overridden by those who self-ID with no assessment of these people in place. I would have no issue with someone who has been through the whole current process to get a GRC entering women's spaces because I know from our family's experience that the profiling and psychological which is done before any medical transition is likely to weed out those without real intention to assimilate. Further my experience with transwomen and transmen of my acquaintance leads me to believe that those transpeople who go as far as GRC are not likely to be pushing themselves into situations where women are likely to be vulnerable.

I don't think that whether or not a transperson has a penis is the issue. It is who they are and how they behave which matters for women's safety. I believe that current procedure for legal transition is robust enough to sort the dysphoric from the transvestite/female hobbyist.

in short:
I'm pro-trans and sympathetic to their distress.
I do not believe that a desire to have long hair and wear pretty clothes makes one a woman any more than my desire to have short hair and wear trousers would make me a man.
I am very concerned about self-ID as a harm to confused people and true dysphorics. I am very concerned about self-ID as a harm to women's safety and the erosion of safe spaces for women.
I will treat everyone with respect and call anyone by any name/use any pronoun they prefer.
I have faith in the medics and psychologists/psychiatrists who work with individuals wanting a medical transition/towards GRC.
I do not believe that all transwomen are women. I do not believe that all transmen are men.
I do not believe that asking someone to define 'what makes them feel like a woman/man' is a reasonable question. Dysphorics don't have a better idea on this than women do: but they do have a strong cognitive dissonance with their own gender which the psychologists and doctors have decided is best treated by presenting as the other gender.
I think that third spaces, some unisex/non gendered facilities alongside sex specific facilities is the way to go.
I do not want women to have to step aside or lose their loos like they did at the recent NUStrans conference. The fact that the young trans-lobby didn't see the blatant misogyny there was shocking.
I think that the angry TRAs are not helping their own cause.
I am worried that the angry RadFems are going to lose us the war.
I am hoping that reasonable moderates on both sides behind the scenes can sort this out for us.

I think the debate isnt happening widely enough and many many women dont know/think it will affect them. In a team of 27 women, not one of them had heard of, or cared to hear about he proposals to amend legislation. Thier only exposure to transgender is Caitlyn Jenner and those who had heard, dismissed it as over reactionary and a fuss about nothing. That is almost as scary as the actual erosion of womens rights.

What a wonderful parent you are, and I wish your child every peace and happiness going forward.

Interesting that you've commented a couple of times MRA that some men don't like women very much (and you even said some actively hate women) and no one's responded as women just go yeah, noticed that, and go on with what they're doing, not really bothered one way or the other.

Just thirty years ago some lesbians in my local LGB (as it was then) were living an actively separatist lifestyle and everyone just accepted that different people make different choices and took no further notice. Just in the last 48 hours on FWR here I've seen quoted or linked TRA/trans ideology condemnation of women 'excluding' men from their dating pool or sexual partners, and wanting to 'exclude' men from any part of their lives. Interesting that it's fine for a man to not like women as a species and avoid them, but absolutely not ok for a woman to not like men or expect to avoid them without criticism or challenge.

It's rather like it's essential that a man's right to strip off fully accepted where ever he likes and in front of whoever he likes is respected because his feelings matter - but the feelings of the women around him don't matter at all. In fact they're stupid for having the wrong ones. How do you reason that one away without admitting that women are not valued or important as men in this ideology?

And while I'm on the soap box because this stuff really gets up my nose, while so many posts on FWR mention the importance of anti discrimination laws for trans people, the effects of male violence on trans people as well as women which is not being addressed at all, the absolute right for everyone to be able to dress, name themselves and live any way they choose without fear of violence or discrimination - can anyone, anywhere, find me in amongst all the tweets of die in a fire/punch a terf any mention of recognition of women's needs or feelings, women's safety, any compassion or even basic awareness of why GC women are standing up and saying wait a minute?

Because I can't find it. Not one.

Of course not. Not only because of misogyny, but because the vast majority of prominent TRAs seem to have narcissistic personality disorder.

Someone will probably report this comment, but there's really no way to wrap your head around the sheer batshit insanity of some of the things TRAs are demanding until you realize that they very literally don't think other people matter at all. Not women, not children, not anyone. They can and will sacrifice every single one of us to serve their own needs if they're allowed to do so.

Look I’m not going to piss on you and tell you it’s raining misogyny is alive and well, and I wish it wasn’t. Particularly in some circles I’ve run in in the past.

Believe it or not I have a lesbian buddy and I feel for this cotton ceiling rubbish. You can’t self-identify yourself past another’s consent. It would be like a rapist saying “I self identify as someone you’d agree to have sex with.” It. Just. Doesn’t. Work.

Why does the 'lesbian buddy' thing remind me of the 'my wife is Black' thing that MRA's used to say before all this TRA shit blew up?

Apols for the apostrophe

until you realize that they very literally don't think other people matter at all. Not women, not children, not anyone

It borders on a level of narcissism that can't even recognise other people exist, let alone matter. That horrible denunciation account that appeared the other day told me it was transphobic to oppose the dilution of DBS safeguarding procedures put in place after the Soham murders. The level of toxic narcissism it must take to say such a thing just astounds me.

I only reference it to explain why I empathise with the position. You don’t need to like me for me to agree with you on this issue.

If you'd stop me-railing that would help. Let's discuss the topic of the thread rather than how an MRA feels about being on a feminist forum and how defensive he's going to get over every single comment anyone else posts.

I quite agree there are more important things at stake.

The level of toxic narcissism it must take to say such a thing just astounds me.

I honestly think that's why so many people who think TRAs are nutcases aren't engaging. Who wants to get into an argument with someone like that? Especially when the narcissistic rage that's then aimed right at you is really something to behold.

TRAs seem to assume that lack of direct engagement means agreement. I think it more often means that someone has spotted the seething hornets nest of personality disorders behind the Twitter account and decided that almost anything else they could do with their day would be more productive than poking it. My DH keeps saying "these people are fucking nuts, why are you even trying to reason with them?" and he's not wrong.

(I'm not trying to reason with them, I'm trying to give them enough rope to hang themselves with so anyone who's still on the fence can hopefully figure out what they're really dealing with.)

"My DH keeps saying "these people are fucking nuts, why are you even trying to reason with them?" and he's not wrong."

My husband says exactly the same thing!