State your views on trans issue/self id issues *TITLE EDITED BY MNHQ

[MipMipMip]

I've noticed that there have been quite a few comments recently where they feel anyone on here has a single view of the trans issues. It makes it easier to tar us all with the same brush and to whip up hatred in the media.

So I thought it would be a good time to do a single post each with our views. Not to try to convert anyone, just to say what your starting point is. If you want to put in a bit of background info and things you feel influence you then great. If not, also great.

We are a massive group of people and we will have different opinions. It makes us a lot harder to dismiss if we can show that.

I am a single woman, no children. I am lucky enough to have not been the victim of male violence but have seen the result of it many times. I am poor and pretty well educated (although never uni). I have no political home and family go from corbynite to Tory. I am very aware of physical differences between sexes and can be uncomfortable only with a male, although it is not triggering.

I have always used the honour system with trans women and will continue to do so. I am very opposed to self ID and while I think most of the people who would use it are mearly thoughtless I have no doubt some will exploit it. I think taking away the medical element of body disphoria, and separating trans from it, is a mistake that will have a terrible affect on individuals. I believe transition should be as a last resort when counciling etc has not worked.

I think anyone may present as they wish but if they plan to use female facilities they should have a GRC or be in the two year process for one. Surgery or chemical castration should form part of that (although I'm torn as I don't wish unnecessary surgery on anyone but I cannot understand how, if they have BD, they could stand to keep their body as it is). A person cannot change sex but out of respect I will use a female or make pronoun if they wish it (unless talking about issues where clarity of sex is needed). I will not use weird made up pronouns as I don't believe you should control someone's use of language in that way.

I have a deep sympathy for transsexuals, both for what they have been through and for getting caught up with the TRAs.i have no doubt a number of TRAs are very dangerous women hating individuals whose activities are criminal and who should be treated as such. Some scare me and I find the way the world is bowing down to their demands terrifying. I believe that only exposure to the wider world, including that for the majority there is no body disphoria and that there are no genital operations, will change things. I think when that does come out things could become violent and that innocent transsexuals will get caught up in that. I think that a lot of the TRAs will simply go back to presenting male and abandon those who have supported them.

I am happy to support trans women. I object very strongly to being an unwilling participant in someone's sexual thrills by giving them verification when they use the same changing room etc. We have seen evidence that that is happening and there needs to be a way to stop it.

We need to regain separation of transsexual and transvestite. We need to not give up the word woman as we are being erased and losing the ability to describe ourselves. There needs to be seperation on statistics etc and medical needs must be clearer.

No prison should have people of the opposite sex in it. If they present otherwise they will need to be treated separately but women should not be sacrificed. Likewise hospitals etc.

I think the way children are being treated is awful. Safeguarding is being ignored and there will be a lot of sterile people in the future who have reverted. There is a huge opportunity for abuse being created.

I think I have a moral duty to fight this as I am in a fortunate position. I know there are women there who are physically scared of violence. I know people are risking jobs and society to say things and I am proud to pay a small part. I'm scared too but not in the same way. I can speak out and so I do. I am sure elements of my views will change as time goes on. I am trying to keep myself educated and learn more. I hate that I cannot just welcome everyone but I would be doing a great disservice to millions of women if I did.

This is my view, I look forward to hearing other people's.

OK, here's mine, and the background against which I have these views.

1. A member of my family is transgender and is in a serious, married, relationship with another family member. I am supportive of this relationship as both parties are respectful of each other and treat each other appropriately as far as I am aware.

1. I support their right to be transgender but am not 100% comfortable with it yet. They have not asked me to call them by their other name and they do not dress as their chosen gender in our home; we haven't discussed this, it is just the way it is happening for now.

1. I also support the rights of women to have safe women only spaces. I support the rights of men to have safe men only spaces. I do not expect that I will find people behaving inappropriately in areas where people are changing; for example if young children are in a changing room I do not expect adults to walk around naked.

1. If somebody genuinely is transgender and respects the rights of their chosen gender then I will tolerate them in the areas reserved for people of that gender. I expect that they will, like all users of the space, treat other users with respect.

1. I will not accept any hate crimes directed at people according to their gender. TRAs are behaving unacceptably if they direct hatred at biological women. Biological women are behaving unacceptably if they direct hatred at transgender women.

I think that is about it.

@MumsnetReport

You screenshotted me for transphobia. I said:

Maybe I'll be proven wrong on this, but I don't think that anyone is born in the wrong body or the wrong gender.

So at the moment there doesn't seem to be scientific evidence for someone being born with a gendered brain in the wrong body. I said I was open to new evidence. Transphobic?

I also said:

Someone who has surgery and hormone treatment deserves to be treated with respect for their condition.

Treating people with respect is transphobic?

It seems that anything that goes against the rigid party line is 'transphobic'.

My daughter has a FTM transitioning friend and thinks it is ace I remember to call him him. I have no problem using preferred pronouns, as I think that is just respectful but then he is respectful to me and my beliefs . I do believe women's spaces should be kept for biological women and that no one can become a woman just because they say they are. There is no such thing as a female brain. I think women need to fight back to ensure they are not erased and at the moment The TRA movement will probably destroy itself though as the tweets from the NUS conference show. I am not CIS.

I've been screenshotted but I think apart from that, they must be desperate for someone to be offensive. Women - always such a disappointment.

Helen of TransGrassTwitter is so desparate to validate her decisions re. her child, she harasses women online, attempting to silence them and shut down any discussion. Her decisions and hers alone are permissable: her right to choose the medical care that she decides is right and her right to impose those decisions on the rest of us.

The answer is No, Helen.

I don’t think what MumsnetReports are doing is terribly relevant. It’s an attempt to silence MNers opinions with their own. There’s no room for conversation or debate so it’s a pretty pointless concern. In the grand scheme of things it’s irrelevant.

Lied to: told they can change sex
Sterilised: by puberty blockers and cross-sex hormones
Mutilated: by unnecessary surgery on what was a healthy body

Pratchet I don't know if I have or haven't and don't care enough to look.

To add to my post above:

Transing children will leave them sterile and dependent on drugs for the rest of their lives. Leave our kids alone, they shouldn't be dragged into this cult.

Children should be supported to live their lives within the bodies they have, not lied to, mutilated and sterilised.

@Sparkduchess has nailed it.

AssignedPuuurfectAtBirth You would think Helen would try to change her posting style wouldn't you?

I don’t think what MumsnetReports are doing is terribly relevant

I'm not on twitter and I don't know much about it, but is 284 followers considered a large audience?

I personally would like to live in a world where your sex is only important for medical/reproductive/sexual compatibility reasons and gender isn't an issue anymore. But I don't see that happening any time soon.

As it is, people should be allowed to express themselves in a way that feels right to them, provided it doesn't hurt anyone. If someone identifies themselves as a trans woman, then absolutely, I will respect their pronouns, whatever the setting. I will not be asking them uninvited personal questions and I will respect their choices as far as presentation/hormones/surgery. I will listen to their own thoughts and feelings on their experiences and respect that. If they are generally perceived in public as a woman, I can acknowledge that they experience misogyny.

I don't think trans people should be discriminated against on the basis of their gender. This is where it starts to get a bit more complicated. There are certain situations where I think it is acceptable for someone to request an AFAB* (assigned female at birth, to use the current terminology) woman. For example for smear tests or psychotherapy. This is not because I don't think trans women can be self aware or because their lack of personal experience with something like a smear test means they must lack empathy. It's because unless they transitioned at a very early age, the chances are they will have some male secondary sex characteristics. Many women directly or indirectly have experienced male violence. Trauma does not care what someones gender identity is, because it bypasses the logic centres in the brain and goes straight to 'fight or flight'. Therefore a woman who has been in any way traumatised by a man has the right to not be treated by someone with male secondary sex characteristics, regardless of gender. Especially when she is in a vulnerable position. It is unfair for anyone to question a woman who requests 'female only' treatment, the only person who gets to decide whether her feelings and experiences are valid is the woman herself. A person doesn't have to have experienced severe violence from a man to be uncomfortable around men.

I think that is the problem with self ID. In principle, fine, a person should be able to be respected as they are. However, in this case it is made more complicated because women are an oppressed group and have good reason to fear men/people who have male secondary sex characteristics. In the case of single sex bathrooms/changing rooms, I think the solution is for there to be more unisex areas/single cubicles (in addition to single sex areas). I understand that as a trans woman it must be hurtful to be excluded from female areas, but it is unfair to potentially trigger women who use those areas to be away from men (see above on trauma). I think that a system where trans women who 'pass' as women can use female areas while those who don't 'pass' can't is an even more unfair set up.

With regards to women's groups, safe spaces and shelters, I think there is room for both those which include trans women and those which do not. I think there needs to be an acceptance from TRAs that female biology IS important. AFAB people are oppressed BECAUSE of their biology, not just because they are seen by the world as women. I think that women's groups which are only open to AFABs (possibly or possibly not including trans men) should not be called transphobic. Just as it is okay for trans women to want spaces only open to trans women to share their common experiences, which AFAB women do not share, so it is okay for AFAB women to want spaces to share common experiences trans women do not share. I think it's important that trans women have spaces in domestic violence shelters, in the ideal world there would be more LBGTQ shelters to accommodate this. Or even spaces in existing women's shelters. I don't think it's fair to ask women fleeing domestic violence - usually at the hands of a man - to share a space with someone who has male secondary sex characteristics and call her out as transphobic if this makes her uncomfortable. The women is at her most vulnerable and as previously mentioned, trauma doesn't care about gender identity. Both the trans woman and the AFAB woman's needs must be protected in that situation. The needs of the trans woman should not trump the needs of the AFAB woman. The AFAB woman should not have to 'deal with it' if she feels triggered by the trans woman. Instead a separate space should be found for the trans woman, where they will have access to support.

Like all women trans women come in different shapes and sizes and it's important not to tar them all with the same brush. I think it's important that trans women, particularly those that transitioned after puberty have the self awareness to realise they have had what might be termed 'perceived male privilege' prior to transition and at times when they are seen as men. It is important to acknowledge that an AFAB woman being wary of a trans woman is not necessarily transphobia, often it's simply years of experiencing misogyny put her on her guard around anyone with male secondary sex characteristics. I think it's important to listen to each other. AFAB women cannot know first hand what it is like to be a trans woman or what harassment they experience and vice-versa. It's important that people aren't shouted down when expressing their own experiences. I hope that we can reach a point where we talk calmly and realise actually, for the most part we are on the same side and the far, far bigger issue is male violence, which affects ALL women.

Appologies for length!
*I hope nobody is offended by the term 'AFAB' I'm using it as I know people here dislike the term 'cis', but 'women' in this context can be read as ambiguous.

@baroquehavoc. I don’t think so. Even I have more than that

Not wanting males to touch your genitals after being assaulted does not bypass the logic centre really. Its not irrational. It's the most logical thing in the world.

Well, she thinks that sex can be changed spontaneous, so would take a guess the wires have been shorted in her head

@baroquehavoc - to be fair this is the third attempt at it. She has locked herself out of one grass account and deleted another one in error. Impressive!

They’re quick off the mark, I’d been screenshotted almost immediately 🙄

I think you are right Iam but your post won’t be screenshotted!

The only other thing I would add is to say the very root of the problem (Male violence, the patriarchy and misogyny) should be the focus of the argument. For transwomen and women to stand together on this would be progress.

Many do, and that is often reflected on MN. It’s just not as much fun to shout about.

My view is that all public spaces are unisex with individual cubicals with floor to ceiling doors and walls. All nesssesary facilities for changing tampons Hans washing etc available within the cubical. If that is not possible due to funding sex segregation is maintained 3rd space for those who don't wish to use the sex segregated facilities All other sex segregation is maintained such as healthcare and prisons Everyone rights maintaied

I hope they never get rid of sex segregated toilets. I feel sorry for women already suffering mixed sex loos. God it must be bloody awful.

Men can never be women. They can id as the brightest unicorn on the rainbow, but they will never be women.
Men have no right in women's safe spaces. It's not just about bathrooms and changing rooms, it's about refugees, women's wards, medical care and all the segregated spaces that are there for a reason, ie, as a result of male violence.

Self ID is the biggest fraud of all time. It's just another way to fuck over women and I'm not standing for it.

I also think that puberty blockers should not be given and no one should be allowed to start the process until the scientific age when the brain is declared "fully developed" (around 23 years of age) if then after extensive counselling and mental help the person still want to trans then they should have that option. But they will never be the opposite sex.

No competing in sports for the opposite sex, no taking jobs earmarked for the opposite sex, no telling women how to be women.

If I were anorexic no one would be pushing liposuction on me......why treat any other body disphoria differently?

I'm not on twitter and I don't know much about it, but is 284 followers considered a large audience

Its enough to be a pain in the arse to MNHQ.

Plus its the retweets that come off those initial followers. The echo effect of twitter.

The problem with gender neutral spaces even if they do have floor to ceiling walls/doors is, it's been shown men have accessed them and installed mini cameras. Allow men in, you invite the possibility of this kind of thing.

Well my post of 0820 has found its way onto twitter. Let's see how long it lasts here

Posting on Twitter is just showboating, MN is an open forum. Helen is just trying to pressure MN to close FWR.

Helen is trying to justify her flawed decisions and force the consequences of it onto the rest of us.

She can fuck right off