State your views on trans issue/self id issues *TITLE EDITED BY MNHQ

[MipMipMip]

I've noticed that there have been quite a few comments recently where they feel anyone on here has a single view of the trans issues. It makes it easier to tar us all with the same brush and to whip up hatred in the media.

So I thought it would be a good time to do a single post each with our views. Not to try to convert anyone, just to say what your starting point is. If you want to put in a bit of background info and things you feel influence you then great. If not, also great.

We are a massive group of people and we will have different opinions. It makes us a lot harder to dismiss if we can show that.

I am a single woman, no children. I am lucky enough to have not been the victim of male violence but have seen the result of it many times. I am poor and pretty well educated (although never uni). I have no political home and family go from corbynite to Tory. I am very aware of physical differences between sexes and can be uncomfortable only with a male, although it is not triggering.

I have always used the honour system with trans women and will continue to do so. I am very opposed to self ID and while I think most of the people who would use it are mearly thoughtless I have no doubt some will exploit it. I think taking away the medical element of body disphoria, and separating trans from it, is a mistake that will have a terrible affect on individuals. I believe transition should be as a last resort when counciling etc has not worked.

I think anyone may present as they wish but if they plan to use female facilities they should have a GRC or be in the two year process for one. Surgery or chemical castration should form part of that (although I'm torn as I don't wish unnecessary surgery on anyone but I cannot understand how, if they have BD, they could stand to keep their body as it is). A person cannot change sex but out of respect I will use a female or make pronoun if they wish it (unless talking about issues where clarity of sex is needed). I will not use weird made up pronouns as I don't believe you should control someone's use of language in that way.

I have a deep sympathy for transsexuals, both for what they have been through and for getting caught up with the TRAs.i have no doubt a number of TRAs are very dangerous women hating individuals whose activities are criminal and who should be treated as such. Some scare me and I find the way the world is bowing down to their demands terrifying. I believe that only exposure to the wider world, including that for the majority there is no body disphoria and that there are no genital operations, will change things. I think when that does come out things could become violent and that innocent transsexuals will get caught up in that. I think that a lot of the TRAs will simply go back to presenting male and abandon those who have supported them.

I am happy to support trans women. I object very strongly to being an unwilling participant in someone's sexual thrills by giving them verification when they use the same changing room etc. We have seen evidence that that is happening and there needs to be a way to stop it.

We need to regain separation of transsexual and transvestite. We need to not give up the word woman as we are being erased and losing the ability to describe ourselves. There needs to be seperation on statistics etc and medical needs must be clearer.

No prison should have people of the opposite sex in it. If they present otherwise they will need to be treated separately but women should not be sacrificed. Likewise hospitals etc.

I think the way children are being treated is awful. Safeguarding is being ignored and there will be a lot of sterile people in the future who have reverted. There is a huge opportunity for abuse being created.

I think I have a moral duty to fight this as I am in a fortunate position. I know there are women there who are physically scared of violence. I know people are risking jobs and society to say things and I am proud to pay a small part. I'm scared too but not in the same way. I can speak out and so I do. I am sure elements of my views will change as time goes on. I am trying to keep myself educated and learn more. I hate that I cannot just welcome everyone but I would be doing a great disservice to millions of women if I did.

This is my view, I look forward to hearing other people's.

I agree with Red, it is not just the changes that are being hammered through, it is the way it is done. The abuse, the threats, the violence, the persecution for stating facts. It is out there in the open, yet the powers are quiet. Why? The silence is going to make us lose our voices in society and I really believe that.

For the rest of it:
Transwomen will never understand what it is to be a biological women, with all the downsides it entails. They just see the romanticised fun stuff.
Transwomen will always be male and have no place in womens spaces, sports etc. pronouns, I will try out of respect, but not the zie and all that other stuff. Sorry, but my brain is just not wired that way.
GRCs are not necessary anymore, changing your birth certificate is falsifying history. Maybe remove gender/sex from all other documents if people find it difficult to keep stating their biological sex? Of have both?
Children should never ever be given hormones or blockers. If they want to present as the opposite gender then go for it. Toilets, changing rooms are still segregated by sex and children need to be taught to accept someone presenting as different.

Posie you deserve a new thread on this terrible fascistic pursuit of you. Mind if I start one.

Be my guest. x

My sister was a heroin addict. She was abused and ultimately pimped out by her "boyfriend".

At one point, she was locked in a house for 3 weeks, fed drugs and repeatedly raped by whoever paid and some of this was recorded and put on the internet.

She got pregnant as a result of this 3 week period, but refused to acknowledge it. It wasn't until she was in labour that she sought medical help or called family.

She died at 30. Despite her lifestyle, this wasn't from an overdose or organ failure or even male violence. It was "sudden adult death syndrome" basically, they have no idea how she died, I suspect that she just gave up.

The only rehab programme she engaged with was the woman only programme she was on when she died. She could not engage when men were present, the instinct to defer to and shut up around men, learned from years of abuse prevented her from opening up.

She didn't read people as male or female based on hair length or clothing choice, she read male socialization and we all know how a group changes with the addition of a man.

So anyway, women only spaces are vitally important to the women like my sister, they are the hill I am prepared to die on and this informs my view of trans issues.

Dress how you want, live how you want, but have some respect of the abused, prostituted and otherwise vunerable women and stay the fuck out of their spaces.

Well cripes knows how long it will last but I did it. Bloody hell.

Hubris

I am still Spartacus.

I think trans in most forms is a mental illness.

hubris

I see MumsnetReport is screengrabbing almost everything on here, despite the fact that nobody has said anything transphobic. Feels like being watched by the Stasi.

Trans women are women.
Self ID change as proposed doesn't change anything for anyone who doesn't need it to change their own paperwork nor increases any risk, and the opposition to it is frankly baffling.
Nobody is trying to stop anyone from talking about their reproductive systems, as is bizarrely claimed so often, however it's not the only topic relevant in feminism.
My feminism is intersectional and includes trans women.
I'm can see a huge overlap in rhetoric between the regressive conservative Christian right and trans excluding feminism, and don't think it's coincidental.

I'd like to see less segregation rather than more (cubicles hurray!).

@WidowWadman Fantastic to see a range of views here. :)

What is it about transwomen that makes them women, beyond declaring that they are women?

This is a great thread.

Each technological advance creates a period of change in society. Right now it is the advances in medical feminisation techniques.

Thinking that you don’t need to use the technology to make the change (self ID) when nobody contemplated that before the technology existed is a sign of the technology’s power and maturity.

Women’s rights are hard won and fragile.

Hubris

I have no issue whatsoever with the vast majority of trans people, respect their rights to their choice of pronouns, they are absolutely entitled to live their lives as they choose, and deserve to do so in safety. Those rights do not include the right to tell others they must be “cis”.

I believe the tiny yet horrifically powerful trans activism lobby is doing appalling damage to the general public’s understanding of the rest of the trans population, with their violence, misogyny and hate stemming from a MH condition that has far more to do with narcissism than body dysmorphia. Their actions are creating a division where there was none.

Is this where we collate everything that's needed for Trans activists to target specific accounts more easily?

Handy if you think about it.

WidowWadman, what is your opinion about children (particularly young teenagers) sharing sleeping accommodation on school trips and scout/guide camps?

Should there be segregation by sex, by gender, or none at all?

Most of the posts explain how I feel about it.

I’m angry that so much energy is being put into attacking women and their rights.

I’m furious that there is no call on men to share their spaces or change their behaviour. Why do people think we have women only spaces?

I’m bewildered by the fact that there is no call for support for people suffering from gender disphoria to provide better mental health and medical provision, for both transition and future health care.

I’m wondering how the hell anyone has time to police Mumsnet, screenshot posts and report them. Go fight a meaningful battle. The majority of us would support specific transgender rights if they were being fought for. But they aren’t. Move over or fuck off is the message being sent to women.

The whole thing is a farce fuelled by entitled misogyny.

If my son came to me and told me he felt he was female, I’d support him with every cell of my being. I’d do everything I could to help him find peace with who he is or felt he should be. If ultimately it meant drugs and surgery, that would be at the end of a very long road into adulthood. But I would not let anyone else pay a price for it or be compromised by it.

HubrisComicGhoul - and yes, it's the most vulnerable, most voiceless women who will suffer most. Women like your sister; women in prison; women in locked mental health wards. I see extremist transactivism not only as misogynistic and homophobic, but also extremely classist.

Thank you all for the flowers. I wasn't trying to elicit sympathy, just that the background is fundamental to my view on women only spaces.

I also think that a lot of women on mumsnet (and in general) live very sheltered lives and cannot imagine a life like my sister's, so don't really understand how vunerable some women are. Things that are self preservation for them, are considered bigoted on here.

Legislation should always look at the impact on the most vulnerable and ensure that protections are put in place. The fact that this isn't happening is clear evidence (to me at least), that the policy makers see trans-women as men.

Lang Yes, I think class is a massive issue here. Poor women have always been disposable

Is this where we collate everything that's needed for Trans activists to target specific accounts more easily?

Handy if you think about it

Quite. My thoughts exactly.

I have a base-level of respect for any person I meet. Therefore, if you tell me your name is Sarah, I will call you Sarah.

I will not, however, change my language and how I refer to myself to validate your identity. I am not a 'cis' woman, I am a woman.

If you berate me and denigrate me because I refuse to use the language you prescribe to me, you will lose my respect.

You do not own my language. You have no right to tell me how to speak. I have the right to describe my biology in any way I see fit - it is mine.

I accept someone being deemed legally a woman without literally being a woman, just like a company can be legally a person (but you couldn’t take it to the pub). Alongside that they can be socially a woman, and I’ll respect that. But literally a woman, exactly like me? No. This comes from respecting the trans people I know who I simply could not just invalidate and insist they are in NO WAY what they say they are, but also from simple logic and the acceptance that words have meaning. ‘Woman’ just cannot be, across the board, some vague woolly concept you get to opt in and out of (sometimes on alternating days )

I worry a lot about young girls who think they’ve found a way to trade up to the superior state that is masculinity.

I find it a difficult subject as there is a lot of nuance that’s being pushed out by extremism - amazingly it’s YEARS since I first heard someone denounce FGM as a transphobic, and that kind of crap makes it very tempting to draw hard lines and start saying I’ll never call a male person ‘she’.

However I don’t believe the only way to fight extremism is with extremism. My only hard line is - if you’ve ever put a penis somewhere it wasn’t wanted (ie you’ve been convicted of rape) you don’t get to identify as female, in any way, ever.

Yes, they're watching. Don't be cowed. See how people have different views. See how they express them cleanly. Bear witness to the lack of death threats. Lo how different views are expressed without people being encouraged to choke on a dick. waves to mumsnetreports

Quite.

I have the utmost respect for anyone who engages in conversation and encourages debate. There are many threads started by transgender Mumsnetters.

For those policing us and telling tales? Less so. There’s no substance to the accusations of transphobia and bigotry. It’s scaremongering to try to silence. I’ve no interest in that.

Many of the posts on this thread are being screenshotted on Twitter.

For the record, I believe biology is immutable and sex change impossible. People should feel free to present as they wish, but sex segregation for reasons of safety and dignity is important.

The whole TRA is regressive and reductive - girl = make up and ‘girl brain’, boy = trousers and ‘boy brain’ is ludicrous. Gender is a spectrum and most of have traits of stereotypes from both sides. I am a woman who rarely wears ‘womans’ clothes, works in finance and can fix a washing machine. By current definition that makes me difficult to define but I am very definitely a woman.

Children should be supported to live their lives within the bodies they have, not lied to, mutilated and sterilised.