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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

State your views on trans issue/self id issues *TITLE EDITED BY MNHQ

213 replies

MipMipMip · 05/05/2018 21:09

I've noticed that there have been quite a few comments recently where they feel anyone on here has a single view of the trans issues. It makes it easier to tar us all with the same brush and to whip up hatred in the media.

So I thought it would be a good time to do a single post each with our views. Not to try to convert anyone, just to say what your starting point is. If you want to put in a bit of background info and things you feel influence you then great. If not, also great.

We are a massive group of people and we will have different opinions. It makes us a lot harder to dismiss if we can show that.

I am a single woman, no children. I am lucky enough to have not been the victim of male violence but have seen the result of it many times. I am poor and pretty well educated (although never uni). I have no political home and family go from corbynite to Tory. I am very aware of physical differences between sexes and can be uncomfortable only with a male, although it is not triggering.

I have always used the honour system with trans women and will continue to do so. I am very opposed to self ID and while I think most of the people who would use it are mearly thoughtless I have no doubt some will exploit it. I think taking away the medical element of body disphoria, and separating trans from it, is a mistake that will have a terrible affect on individuals. I believe transition should be as a last resort when counciling etc has not worked.

I think anyone may present as they wish but if they plan to use female facilities they should have a GRC or be in the two year process for one. Surgery or chemical castration should form part of that (although I'm torn as I don't wish unnecessary surgery on anyone but I cannot understand how, if they have BD, they could stand to keep their body as it is). A person cannot change sex but out of respect I will use a female or make pronoun if they wish it (unless talking about issues where clarity of sex is needed). I will not use weird made up pronouns as I don't believe you should control someone's use of language in that way.

I have a deep sympathy for transsexuals, both for what they have been through and for getting caught up with the TRAs.i have no doubt a number of TRAs are very dangerous women hating individuals whose activities are criminal and who should be treated as such. Some scare me and I find the way the world is bowing down to their demands terrifying. I believe that only exposure to the wider world, including that for the majority there is no body disphoria and that there are no genital operations, will change things. I think when that does come out things could become violent and that innocent transsexuals will get caught up in that. I think that a lot of the TRAs will simply go back to presenting male and abandon those who have supported them.

I am happy to support trans women. I object very strongly to being an unwilling participant in someone's sexual thrills by giving them verification when they use the same changing room etc. We have seen evidence that that is happening and there needs to be a way to stop it.

We need to regain separation of transsexual and transvestite. We need to not give up the word woman as we are being erased and losing the ability to describe ourselves. There needs to be seperation on statistics etc and medical needs must be clearer.

No prison should have people of the opposite sex in it. If they present otherwise they will need to be treated separately but women should not be sacrificed. Likewise hospitals etc.

I think the way children are being treated is awful. Safeguarding is being ignored and there will be a lot of sterile people in the future who have reverted. There is a huge opportunity for abuse being created.

I think I have a moral duty to fight this as I am in a fortunate position. I know there are women there who are physically scared of violence. I know people are risking jobs and society to say things and I am proud to pay a small part. I'm scared too but not in the same way. I can speak out and so I do. I am sure elements of my views will change as time goes on. I am trying to keep myself educated and learn more. I hate that I cannot just welcome everyone but I would be doing a great disservice to millions of women if I did.

This is my view, I look forward to hearing other people's.

OP posts:
TheUterati · 06/05/2018 16:38

Careful amazing...

"What a bore...." is dangerously close to 'yawn...' or 'bless...'

Thanksforthatamazingpost · 06/05/2018 16:45

sorry yes it is edging that way.

the "bore" for me is the whole meta-debate about the mumsnet mods. Would much rather just read the sodding debate.

as you were.

MistressDeeCee · 06/05/2018 16:45

I am not CIS. I neither know what this new title dreamed up by the posh privileged means, and nor do I accept it. I am a woman - always have been, always will be.

As a black woman I have more than enough experience of those who want to trample over my rights, to discriminate, and appropriate. To decide just like that, they can stick a label on me and tell me how I should think feel and act accordingly to their criteria that they arrogantly created without consulting me.

I accept this from nobody. Don't use your cosy privilege to undermine me.

You want your rights and that's absolutely fine - don't we all. But I don't want equal rights via trampling on others rights and I'd like to be afforded the same courtesy.

There is room for everybody. Don't aim to take up all the space.

Thanksforthatamazingpost · 06/05/2018 16:46

I mean (get to the point woman!) that I don't think deletions are really helping here.

iamawoman · 06/05/2018 20:48

if someone has male genitals/male appearance/male behaviour then they are male-i will accept they are trans and on a personal level will address them according to their preference, however i will not be forced to agree they are a woman and that they should have be able to access womens spaces which have been set up for biological women because this was needed either for privacy and dignity, safety, recovery, fairness, a safe space from men.........

PeakPants · 06/05/2018 20:57

Self-ID- not necessarily anti as it refers to the procedure for getting a GRC only. However I would be concerned if it meant trans people will not get adequate medical support as a result and for that reason I am not fiercely pro it.

Sex-based exemptions under the Equality Act- yes, I am very keen that these stay and that policy is coherent and consistent as to when it is permissible to exclude on the basis of biological sex.

Sports- absolutely not in favour of trans women competing at professional level. Unsure about the new testosterone guidelines because they seem to exclude women with naturally high testosterone which seems unfair too.

Trans children- no surgery or hormones until age 18. But children should be free to present how they like and if they want to call themselves a boy/girl, I don’t think it’s good to stop them, but no permanent body modifications.

Pronouns- not getting worked up about this and most of the people who are very vocal on this make exemptions for trans women they like which entirely weakens the argument. I will use preferred pronouns.

Arguments with TRAs constantly calling them men etc- unhelpful and detracts from the issues hugely. I would prefer not to engage in the arguments raised by TRAs and they certainly don’t represent the whole trans community.

thebewilderness · 06/05/2018 21:16

The more instruction we get from MN mods the more confused I get.
I have very strong opinions with regard to child abuse and what I view as transitioning away the risk of the gay in children for fun and profit.

I am seething with rage at MN mod position that to protect the children they mod team will not allow any discussion of what is being done to these children as it is deemed salacious and sensational.
No shit, MN. That is what we are effing pissed about.

TheElementsSong · 06/05/2018 21:31

I am a scientist.

Pratchet · 07/05/2018 01:37

We can say that children who are given puberty blockers are being given a very strong cancer drug off label and that 'gender oractioners' are very open about the fact that they are experimenting on children. And that taken cross sex hormones plus puberty blockers will lead to sterilisation and very likely loss of sexual function. And that TRA want their own transition 'demedicalised' we know that for some reason they are obsessed with getting kids on these drugs Hmm

Pratchet · 07/05/2018 01:38

These drugs fuck up kids' bodies and TRA say that kids can understand and make this choice that will affect them for the rest of their lives. Fuck. That. Shit.

sportinguista · 07/05/2018 07:23

Really good post Red, I've been thinking much the same myself recently, it's not just the one thing, it's part of a bigger picture which seems to include the idea of massive social change. I worry about sounding like I've overdosed on the YouTube conspiracy section sometimes but certainly I would say there are economic factors at play and naturally at the top of that hierarchy are very rich powerful males. To what end is all this? Population control could be one factor, social engineering?

As you pointed out social change should be beneficial and unforced and it doesn't appear to be, it's not the same as gay rights which has come as a more holistic change. If social conditions were such that women could share spaces with men with absolutely no threat of violence and each sex could present as they wished (dress/hair etc) without comment maybe we would be at the point where we had tackled the social change necessary - but we're a long way from that yet. Forcing something through that 'appears' to tackle it but is actually a step back from that is not really the way to go.

The medicalisation factor is a path that is being pursued to eagerly and without thought/care. We've seen what happens when drugs are put on to the market without sufficient testing/trials, it has consequences that stretch decades and even over generations into the future. Do we really want that?

I feel that more and more I'm turning into one of these off-grid, prepper types because I'm not sure progress is 'progress' and social change is being forced.

I believe nature/science are the way they are for a reason and it's not necessarily ours to try and change that, we need to work with what we have.

AskAuntLydia · 07/05/2018 07:38

Has anyone seen this video? It is absolutely fascinating, describing how come trans issues have made such enormous progress in so little time (hint: it's to do with who has the money )

BrandNewHouse · 07/05/2018 07:47

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

SporadicSpartacus · 07/05/2018 08:59

Good thread idea. I’ve often wondered where this ‘Mumsnet echo chamber’ idea comes from, as I often find myself disagreeing with posters here. Weirdly enough, it’s all been civil and respectful - almost like we can tolerate different opinions and can talk about them.

I try to steer away from using ‘trans’ in my language, when I’m really talking about gender, not trans people. So ‘peak gender’, ‘gender rights activist’ etc.

Personally, I feel like a genderless being, and the only thing that makes me female is my biology.

I understand that, for other people, their gender and sense of self is extremely important. It doesn’t take anything away from me if there’s a mechanism for this to be legally recognised, ie a GRC. I view gender a bit like any other religious or political belief that I don’t share - it is fine until it impinges on the freedoms of others.

However, it’s very important that it is understood that this is about gender, a belief - not sex, a biological fact. I take the view that not everything in life is about sexed power relations, and my femaleness is completely irrelevant most of the time - but when it is relevant, ie healthcare, sports, attempts to address female under-representation, etc, I would expect distinctions to be made based on biological sex, not feelings or opinions.

I’m also concerned about the genderism and autism connection, as an autistic person myself. I think we need to be careful about painting all autistic youth as victims / being groomed / rigid thinking resulting in gender stereotypes - there are some like that, but not all, and autistic people are as capable of being unpleasant fundamentalists / entitled narcissists as NT people. I am also concerned about the appropriation of autism by genderists who don’t have a diagnosis and have just decided to self ID into my neurodevelopmental disability to be special, for attention or to get a free pass to act out.

RedToothBrush · 07/05/2018 10:05

I am particularly concerned about the medical ethics stuff. It has HUGE implications for everyone. It goes far beyond the transitioning of children in terms of how dark it gets.

Earlier this week I was reading an article on the death of a guy who was 'pharmaceutical hacking' (I forget the exact term they gave it). It was basically about a guy who was 'researching' new drugs outside the framework of drug development. I believe he was part of a group trying to 'open source' and 'reverse engineer' drugs to stop the control and pricing of the big companies. He was in his thirties and had died suddenly. The article didn't give his cause of death (yet to be established) but mentioned he had said he believed so much in his own drug he would prove it worked on himself.

Apparently there are lots of people doing this now, so they can try and find a 'new' generic drug that can make them cheap for all. The trouble is they don't actually test these drugs properly. They just develop them and say they think they have found a new generic unpatented alternative. At best they might 'test' the drug on themselves. Not a clinical trial in sight.

Of course this movement is doing particularly well in the US. (Can't think why).

So its not just big pharma who potentially have big motives here.

We have full on anti-science and/or low ethic movements just bubbling along under the surface. Combine that with social media and no health care provision and you have a gold mine right there. The reasons for their development are of course 'progressive' in nature. Here the big caveat on the entire idea of being progressive that everyone forgets: every social and political movement ever thinks itself as essentially progressive even conservative ones. The whole concept of being progressive is simply about moving society forward towards a goal or enlightenment of some kind or other. Unfortunately some of these movements actually even up taking society backwards in terms of quality of life and equality even if the intent was to do exactly the opposite.

Its not prescription drug abuse. Its not straight illegal drug abuse as we know it. Its exploitation of the desperate and the destitute to be cured of the incurable or the uninsured.

Of course, who will back a movement who actively is working to remove medical gatekeeping? Who potentially ends up being the unwitting victim in doing so?

Its not just about transing children at that point.

If you are familiar with Margaret McCartney she talks a lot about the 'worried well' and how a long of health promotion which is very well meaning and very well intended is having this side effect where people are convincing themselves that they have terminal cancer if they have a bit of wind. But might be too scared to go to the doctor or go to the doctor frequently and get told (rightly) there is nothing wrong with them but they come away unsatisfied with what they are told. And of course they read all these horror stories of how the doctors missed a diagnosis....

You can see how all these forces building up in combination and at the same time, can be completely unconnected and yet completely tied together.

The gentle chip, chip away at protective frameworks in any form and from any direction no matter how noble they might appear on the surface is a worry. These frameworks were built up not to protect big pharma but to protect the masses. The effect might have been to create and support big pharma in many respects, but if you focus on that angle alone, you lose sight of the other reasons these frameworks were created.

Its all about a lack of understanding of the roots of how and why western liberal democracy developed the way it did in terms of rights and ethics which society seems to be forgetting. I think we are aware of how the 'holocaust is being forgotten' but its also about other things that came out of the same social bubble.

Its similar to how social media itself was championed as revolutionising society and freeing us, but in practice our data was always cynically also being used against us to exploit us. Its similar to how Trump weaponised identity politics and we see a mirror in Corbynite politics.

For all its noble intent, because its so unregulated, the best this particular movement becomes is like weaponised homoepathy or faith healing. At worst it works by creating mass Munchausen syndrome combined with potentially lethal drugs. And adults and children alike might be potential victims. Yes its full on dystopian nightmare stuff.

This is why, whilst the trans issues in their own right are huge and scary, it needs to be put into the bigger and wider context of everything else which is going on socially.

Right now, I don't see many individuals nor journalists looking at any of this particularly hard. Personally I think someone needs to have a proper look into it.

Frustratingly I can't find this article I saw the other day about the death of this guy. But here's an article on this open sourcing of drugs
www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.vice.com/amp/en_us/article/9agk9y/meet-the-pharmaceutical-hacker-trying-to-make-open-source-drugs

Oh and btw, its not hard to see how this is very much a far left movement in search of utopia (just like the trans movement).

Of course there are some other rather alarming potential side effects here which I'm sure other MNetters are much better placed to explain and elaborate on.

Much of it adds up to the speed of our scientific and social advancement coming to something of a crashing halt in many areas. Almost as if its the end of an era of huge enlightenment.

That is how I am starting to see it. Neo-liberal capitalism got out of control and became unbalanced but what's working to counter that, has lost just as much sight of safeguarding and safety nets and universal social responsibilities.

I'm starting to ramble now, but I hope that someone gets what i'm trying to drive at.

TransExclusionaryMRA · 07/05/2018 10:13

I’m just trying to get out ahead of an inevitable outcome. If Self-ID gets passed, rates of sexual assault/ rape will go up. Opinion will turn against trans people, women who handmaidened for it will be forgotten and it will all be the fault of men like me as per fucking usual.

AssignedPuuurfectAtBirth · 07/05/2018 10:16

What do you mean 'men like me'?

LangCleg · 07/05/2018 10:30

I’m just trying to get out ahead of an inevitable outcome. If Self-ID gets passed, rates of sexual assault/ rape will go up. Opinion will turn against trans people, women who handmaidened for it will be forgotten and it will all be the fault of men like me as per fucking usual.

Seriously? I wouldn't worry about it. Yes, there will be a backlash. No, men won't be blamed. Feminists will be blamed (because nobody will distinguish between the feminists who were against this and the libfems who weren't). LGB will be blamed because their orgs pushed the T. Apolitical trans people will be blamed for the actions of the activists.

And men will be doing most of the blaming.

TransExclusionaryMRA · 07/05/2018 10:35

Well any man potentially. As soon as one man does something wrong the guilt/responsibility for the action seems to spread equally across the gender which wouldn’t be tolerated for a hot minute in any other group.

The equation is very simple for me victims are blameless, innocent people are blameless, the guilty and the guilty alone are solely responsible.

I don’t really have a problem with trans people personally, but it doesn’t take a genius to figure out every peeping Tom, dangerous man out there is going to be emboldened to go out and self id as a women to gain access to them.

OvaHere · 07/05/2018 10:36

I think he means that men's rights activists will take the blame (I'm assuming from the username that's what he is).

Personally I disagree because if there is a woman to be blamed that's usually how it ends up. Feminists will end up with a good proportion of the blame (without discerning between lib fems and rad fems).

I already see a lot of this in right wing leaning comment sections i.e the feminazi's started this so why are they moaning about it. Whilst I don't agree that women did start this in any way - we are not responsible for men's special gender feels, pomo libfem's have encouraged and enabled much of the behaviour.

Special mention also for gay people who will also be blamed in the fallout.

Rad fems might point the finger at MRA's who have seized this as an opportunity but who listens to radfems? If we were listened to we could have put the brakes on this at least five years back.

TransExclusionaryMRA · 07/05/2018 10:40

@LangCleg I dunno some feminists are the only ones actually doing anything. A lot of MRA’s don’t care and unfortunately too many don’t like women very much and are gloating. I suspect libfems will be welcomed back into the fold with open arms. There are posts on this very thread that this is some sort of MRA agenda. Which as far as I know it’s not.

TransExclusionaryMRA · 07/05/2018 10:46

I’ve actually tried to make the case in MRA circles that is a fantastic opportunity to get out and be seen to protect children as the implications of this are really fucking scary down the road and can be framed as a child protection issue.

But unfortunately it’s all falling on deaf ears, I’m afraid too many MRAs are common to garden misogynists who just hate women.

Elletorro · 07/05/2018 10:47

Hi RedToothBrush

What you are saying about circumventing safeguarding/gatekeeping really rings a bell. Is it part of the “we don’t need experts” thing do you think?

Individualism over any loyalty to what is best for society? Maybe we have become so tribal that society has disintegrated so safeguarding etc isn’t respected?

AngryAttackKittens · 07/05/2018 10:47

Well, if you're concerned my suggestion would be to go talk to other MRAs about what you as a group can do to push back against this. As you may have noticed feminists are a bit busy at the moment and don't really have time to do your organizing for you.

TransExclusionaryMRA · 07/05/2018 10:52

I’m not asking you to I’m mainly here as this appears to be the place to congregate on this one particular issue. I’m perfectly capable of taking my own actions on this issue thank you very much. Maybe your insights/arguments here have applications in mine.

I’m only coming to this problem relatively recently and it’s easier to catch up by reading what you have all come up with so far.

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